Worthless Women and the Men Who Make Them (One Year Later)

http://www.youtube.com/embed/hzlvDV3mpZw

I think its things like that video emphasizing how you upset the balance being happy with yourself.  So many individuals, men & women both, are dissatisfied with some aspect of your life, that when you come across a person who actually likes who they are, that many people get jealous.  Some expect them to criticize themselves because, of course, everyone has to have something they hate about themselves.  Some expect them to put on skimpy clothing, because of course you want the attention and compliments you get showing off your body.

My Husband said the best thing ever shortly after we had our daughter, he said "since having our baby girl it changed the way I look at all women of all ages, all i can think is that they are or were someones baby girl." ♥

I kind of wish you had dates on your posts -- I've been surfing through your blog and I have a hard time telling when you wrote what, and what order the posts came up, although the content certainly gives clues here and there.  Here's my two bits' worth:I'm married to a guy who doesn't ogle, doesn't look, doesn't buy, doesn't pause.  Eyes just for me and, I'm not boasting or anything but, pretty intensely for me.  He was raised to be that way.  He has a powerful sense of respect for women and for himself, especially where sexuality comes into play.  He and I raised three sons and two daughters, all of whom learned from their dad that love and attraction are meant to be intense and exhilarating (I can't believe that word is spelled right, but the red squiggly line finally went away ... ), but don't exist simply for entertainment value.What has this done for me?  Well, it made parenting easier -- what I tried to teach my kids was reinforced by their dad every step of the way -- but I've also found myself freed by his love and devotion.  I don't waste energy worrying about superficial things like I did before I met him.  I'm more open to believing in myself, and to seeking out what I really want to do and who I really want to be.  So many of my insecurities have dissolved over the years.  He has challenged me to be who I really am.  I think I have challenged him to do the same.  Our partnership has plenty of passion in it, but it is so much more than that -- it's about building something and sharing philosophies and ideals and visions for the future.  I guess this is the kind of thing that an old 50-something grandma would say, but that kind of oneness is better than sex.  Not that I'm willing to take one over the other, but I hope you get my point.  We spend so much time and marketing money defining ourselves as sexual beings, when that's just one piece of who we are.  We're spiritual beings, physical beings, intellectual beings, emotional beings, social beings, culinary beings  . . . . help me out here; there are more!  When all we focus on is what we see, and if we let ourselves be defined by our physical appearance, we're always going to be disappointed in the results.  And we're not even going to pretend that our over emphasis on the physical isn't connected to our over emphasis on sexuality in our society.  The oversexualization of men and women in our media is exactly what you're talking about, and we need to rise above it.

Wow! You should do another follow up on this one sometime. Here, you're still claiming you're straight ;)

Way to go by the way!  xoxo

I gotta applaud your sentiments, but I think you've missed the point a little bit.

If someone is in a monogamous relationship and they flirt with (which includes oogling) other people all the time, or they spend hours watching porn alone while their SO smokes cigarettes on the porch and complains about it to their friends - that monogamous relationship just isn't going to last, or if it lasts it definitely isn't going to be very happy or peaceful.

If someone's constantly checking out other women, that's a legit issue, if someone's constantly watching porn alone, that's an issue - check out your lady, have sex with your lady, in theory you could watch porn with your lady to get ideas, hell - I don't see a problem with watching some porn alone, but don't do it to the detriment of your sex life. Going at it alone can even a little pressure off her so that you don't feel she has a responsibility to relieve your horniness at any given moment regardless of decorum, inconvenience, etc., but if your fantasy sex life ruins your ability/desire to have healthy consenting sex with another human being, then that's a problem.   Heck, this may feel like the number one relationship issue from the POV of men - but it has everything to do with managing sexual urges, not being emotionally supportive like your article where you urge women to be supportive of men instead of bringing them down.   It's not quite the same thing as putting someone down emotionally(though it may "bring them down" so to speak).

It's more of a betrayal of a monogamous relationship AS SUCH to exclude your SO from your sexuality, to invite other people's sexual interest, to disengage with your SO in order to engage flirtatiously with others, to focus on the sexuality of other people that aren't your SO.

No one's perfect, SOME lapses of judgement can be forgiven, but if it's a habit - it's a habit that's not compatible with monogamy.   It's not really equatable to what you're talking about in your article encouraging women to be supportive rather than critical of the special man in their life.   The issue of how to really be supportive of another person in a relationship is rooted in the difference between mature love and sexual desire.

As a woman, I don't want to merely be beautiful. I don't mind being told I'm beautiful or generally regarded as beautiful, but it does not inspire feelings of being valued as a human being, so much as valued as a pleasurebot or trophy.

There are many different kinds of love - the ones based completely or almost completely in attraction rather than respect and kindness, do not a LTR make. But if someone is into a series of casual hookups, as long as they're being honest, I guess there's no obligation to respect/admire/understand/value someone else's mutifaceted humanity.

When someone "loves" you ONLY OR MOSTLY because of your physical appearance, if you care about your relationship with them of COURSE you worry that as you age they will try to find someone they feel is more beautiful, or that you need to find ways to be as beautiful as possible so that a more beautiful woman won't whisk your man away. Of COURSE you'll feel uncomfortable if you catch this person even glancing at other women in an appreciative way.

Someone who believes recognizing physical "real beauty" is the most important thing about how a man can interact with a women is missing the point.

It's not that I don't want to be beautiful, but if beauty were the main or only reason that would compell a man to want to be with me, then I would be anticipating the day that his juvenile infatuation would fade, or the day that I would cease to be beautiful to him, because anyone's physical qualities can change in ways they don't have much control over - aging, anyone?

If I were concerned about maintaining that relationship with that man for whatever reason, I would become unduly obsessed with something I have no control over - someone else's perception of me, which is arguably culturally-biased, even culturally based to some extent.

If someone loves you for who you are as a person - this ceases to be so much of a concern. Someone can deeply care about your well-being and happiness and can still WANT you and enjoy having sex with you or looking at you, etc.  Most women can probably have cheap meaningless sex with a number of different men, if they wanted - I've turned down more oportunities than I can count and I'm definitely not the most beautiful woman on earth, or even "conventionally beautiful" IMO. We women live in this culture where we are unrelentingly pursued. If ALL I am is beautiful to someone, from my point of view I'm looking at a relationship that consists of no more than ?? years of casual sex with the same person. In a LTR, I want to be recognized and valued as an interesting worthwhile person - not just continually sized up as a sexual partner.

Sexual chemistry and mutual attraction can be really great and exciting, but if you have it with someone you don't have real respect and admiration and understanding for, it's not a reason to trust them with your emotions, your bank account number, your dog, your DNA, the next forty years of your life, etc.

My sense of being appreciated in a relationship, really appreciated, comes from someone valuing what I do and who I am. It's nice when you make an effort to look good and someone recognizes that or is wowed by that, don't get me wrong - the sentiment of appreciating beauty comes from a good place, I get that - but for me, it can be focused on to the detriment of developing and supporting a meaningful multi-faceted relationship. I want a man who values the way I treat him, who values the little and big things I do for him that I do out of love and consideration - who acknowledges and appreciates the reality of our relationship and my feelings for him. I want a man who also values the things that don't normally change with age; things like integrity, perserverance, fortitude, creativity, humor, various skills, curiosity, sense of adventure, responsibility, compassion, intelligence, etc. Yeah, I want to be valued for those things. I will enjoy the fact that my BF thinks I'm "hot", that he doesn't check out chicks, that he doesn't jerk off alone, - but somewhere appealing to put his sausage BETTER NOT be the grand summary of what I am to him. (And it clearly isn't, thankfully) You can admire someone, care sincerely for their well-being and happiness, and be really attracted to them - when someone feels that way about you that is when you know you have something worth holding on to, and being respected and cared-about - not merely wanted - is IMO what *really* means something and bolsters someone's self-esteem.

I loved your worthless women post. But while reading it I also realized it's not just men who do it. Women do it too! I've heard women put down their men saying stuff like "oh I wish my man looked more like so & so." Everybody does it! It's not bad to wanna be with someone who is attractive, but they don't have to have everything that you deem as the "perfect" man or woman. Personality is a BIG part of determining whether or not a person is attractive. You could be damn near close to perfect, but if you got a terrible personality and/or attitude you're nowhere near as good looking as you were before. Don't worry about women asking you if you're gay, they just probably can't believe there is a guy out there who is completely different from the stereotypical male that has been shoved down their throats. I've met just as many men who think about sex all the time, as men who don't feel like they need/want it all the time. My man is the same way, not in to porn & doesn't constantly want sex. Not gay, just mature! Like I said though it's not wrong to want someone you're physically attractive to, but don't ignore someone who doesn't match up to your standards on how physically attractive they are. You might be missing out on a truly beautiful person, whose personality radiates through them like the sun. More often than not, the person you end up spending the rest of your life with won't be a 10, until after you get to know them.

understandmen.com - you'll probably dig this.

My exhusband just emailed me this link. A year ago when you wrote the original post we discussed the objectification of women, and the truth that I found in the original post. He, on the other hand, just figured you were mormon cause youre from Utah, and that explained all the 'crazy' ideas about women... haha. I know its confusing to date, and to learn how we are supposed to see women/men compared to how the media world tells us to see them. Dont lose hope on your original idea though! I sure appreciated the things you said, and I think the truth does lie somewhere between. I think its good to realise exactly what objectification is, at what point are you doing that when you look at magazines, or even at your partner. There is a healthy medium, and maybe those women who asked if you were gay are just so used to being objectified that they think it's normal. I have been in that place, where I though it was beautiful to have my boobs hanging out and have men gasping. Now, as a mother, I have a totally different perspective on beauty, and while I would like to go home to a man who will wrap me in his arms and love me, I dont want him to be oggling and drooling all the time! I want him to love me in my sweatpants, and to show love to me through more ways than simply finding me sexy. I want him to clean the house, change some diapers, take me dancing. This is an important subject because you dont want people to read this article and justify their bad and hurtful habits of objectification. Good on you though for being honest and sharing your questions with the cyber world!

A lot of great comments here, I will try not to be repetitive. I went back and read the original post, and then a few more for perspective. One of the first things that jumped out at me was the Covergirl ad in the corner (literally, it blocked part of the screen), and then the lovely blonde lady smiling out at me from the side wearing just her bra. That's not really a criticism, but it points out just how much we're exposed to this stuff. It IS embedded in our culture, and it DOES have a negative impact, but it's not the only, or even the primary force at work here. I think what you said about the comments and the jokes is much more important. What we hear from our loved ones has a much deeper impact. Competition and comparisons have always been a part of our culture--it's not a new invention! There are lots of things out there that make us feel inadequate. There's always someone out there who's "better." In other posts, I have seen you refer to yourself as worthless. This is something we are all guilty of. The important thing is to notice when you do it and ask where it's stemming from. WHY do you feel worthless? Is there any truth to it? Can you do anything about it? I'm not arguing that the media isn't evil and doesn't play a huge part in this, but there's always something else going on. This is particularly my thought when you speak of feeling less attraction to women after changing how you look at them, because you also said in the original post that you were having attraction problems already. It could be the media, but any number of factors could be at play including hormones or defense mechanisms. Fear or feelings of inadequacy can certainly cause issues there. The fact that you're feeling better in that department lately could be because you're feeling more self confident. Just a thought. Of course, the big thing is that we're even having this discussion and challenging the voice in our heads. Just asking where these ideas are coming from is a great step in the right direction. Thanks for putting yourself out there and provoking thought, Dan!

I haven't reread your Worthless Women post. I know I have fought hard against photoshopping, against industries that prey on women (and men) hating themselves. I don't like the diet industry. I don't like the health food industry, the anti-aging creams, none of it...

Bodies are beautiful. ALL of them.

Avoiding looking at a woman because she has boobs is no better than ogling.

My thought is see the person. ALL of the person. Find the beauty in everyone you meet, and appreciate it.

I don't see a person as a list of body parts. I see a person.

And, I also believe that just by desiring to do things differently, you are already changing the world.

I think you are too hard on yourself. How about appreciating all beauty? I think that making a concerted effort to not allow "fake" beauty to CANCEL OUT your appreciation for "real" beauty is the key here. Stay sensitive to the fact that promotional beauty is there to sell a product. It's there to help you forget that life isn't a fantasy and your favorite football team will NOT be calling you soon to ask if you want to be their quarterback. It's there to make you believe that your life could be fixed in a moment by this one purchase, this one feeling, this one desire.

I think you have mastered that one. I think you are able to see where the truth and the lies are, my friend. You're still a human. Heck, I'm a straight, married woman and half the time I look at magazine covers of women and think, "DAAAAAAAAAYUM." LOL

I think that the original article was helpful in particular to women to remind themselves that confidence and self love are really the more gorgeous traits on a lady, heck, on a man too. I appreciated your original post, and I appreciate the gut-wrenching honesty of this one. Cheers, Dan!

Hi Desiree, I went through a few very similar experiences as a Bi-woman, with a slight difference. I was able to see other women as beautiful and sexy just as they were and I didn't notice their flaws or imperfections at all... I only saw my own. For me, I went through a period of time where I was insecure and afraid of other women, even as I was drawn to and attracted to them. Afraid they were more perfect, more beautiful, more desirable, sexier than I was, and so if I wanted to connect with them or share an intimate experience with them with my boyfriend, that he would end up finding them better than me. And when he looked at other women with desire or interest, I would compare myself to them and always see them as better, prettier, and having more to offer him. It was a dark painful time for me, that required much patience to work through, root out the causes of the insecurity and heal it.

But it was worth it :-) Now I see beautiful wonderful women all around me, and I know I am a beautiful wonderful sexy amazing woman myself :)

(part 2) But resisting the fake bodies isn't the same as giving up looking at women! If the woman you're on a date with wears a low-cut shirt or a tight skirt, congratulations! She probably wants to turn you on. Let her know that she succeeded, but don't make her think that's the only reason you want her. Glance at her boobs, smile, then come back up to her eyes and genuinely talk to her. Women like to feel pretty and sexy and desired, but that's not all they want to feel. If a woman knows she has more to offer than just boobs or butt, she won't be worried that she's not good enough because someone else has a better looking (if photoshopped) butt or rack. The trick isn't to stop finding women attractive, or even to stop looking at attractive women. The trick is to make the woman you're with feel attractive, AND appreciated for who she is.

I look at bone-thin models now and feel sick to my stomach and turned OFF, but that may just be because I'm a woman and I know if I let them they'll make me feel worthless. Try looking at some real sexy women instead of models and magazines. Promote organizations that encourage a healthy body image, and never use words like 'fat" or "flabby" or any other degrading words. You're on the right track, buddy, just keep believing in yourself. =)

Here are some great websites with sexy, real women:

http://www.fiftywomen.com/index.html

http://theshapeofamother.com/

http://thisisawoman.com/

http://www.naturalmodelsla.com/

http://www.healthyisthenewskinny.com/

http://www.curvestokill.com/

http://onepinky.com/

http://www.owningpink.com/

Thanks once again, Dan, for a heartfelt, truthful post. There have been a ton of great comments on this already, but I still want to add my two cents. I love women. I love men, too. I'm bisexual. For years, I couldn't find everyday women attractive because they had a belly, or jiggly arms, or cellulite on their thighs, etc. etc. And for those reasons, I didn't think of myself as attractive. I looked at the fashion magazines and lingerie ads and thought, "God she's hot, I wish I looked like her." With men, it wasn't as big of a deal, because I wasn't as conditioned (by media, family, friends) to criticize them. I was more likely to get to know them, like them because they treated me well, and become attracted to their personalities.

For me, the first step to accepting real women was to become comfortable with myself, and find me sexy. I realize for you as a guy, it's a bit different. Once I could look at myself in the mirror, belly and acne and all, and find me attractive, then I found myself being extremely forgiving with other women (more forgiving than I am for myself, in fact.) So, as a man, what do you do? Yes, stop looking at fake women in magazines, in porn, etc. If you just can't help yourself every now and then, don't beat yourself up for it. It's okay. If you're skipping out on the sexy woman in your bed to watch porn, there's a problem. If you're stopping your conversation with the real woman you're on a date with to watch the waitress's butt as she walks away, there's a problem. Personally, I can't see you ever doing either of these things, but they happen. And it happens when men (or women) lose respect for the women they're with, and women in general.

I think that you are definitely on the right track, Dan, as you are with most of your ideas. However, I think that what you really need to work on is balance...striving to find a balance between two opposing points of view always seems to help me sort out conflicting ideas in my head. Adhering to any idea in the extreme form leaves no room for interpretation or modification; then you beat yourself up trying to decide whether or not you are wrong or right. And therein lies the source of inner conflict.

So I try to always find a middle ground. I can't always do it, but I try. And every day brings in new ideas and interpretations...and yet another chance to find the balance.

You just said in this comment, "A few days ago, I told you I had gone on a “woman fast.” I told you I stopped dating until my heart was ready to be pulverized once more. But that wasn’t really accurate. In fact, I lied because I didn’t want to admit the truth", the same thing you told men they were causing us women to say badly about ourselves...geez...

Nancy

I know that my personal feelings come from many sources, especailly media. Let me give you a chilling example. My family lived in Europe for 8 years. We didn't have TV, we watched DVD's or AFN which is commercial free. We moved back to the US when my daughters were 7 and 6. They are now 10 and 8. Within a few weeks of good ol'e American advertising my oldest started asking for a certain shampoo because "My hair isn't shiny!"

They worry about flaky skin, dandruff, getting fat, having shiny or bouncy hair, getting wrinkles, smelling bad, having teeth that aren't WHITE, germs, stong muscles, steam-cleaned floors, the right car insurance. It is shockng and disturbing! In just over 2 years my kids went from being well-adjusted kids with average self-esteem to anxious, critical, frustrated worriers!

I think everyone in our society, both men and women are getting some pretty messed up ideas, even if we don't consiously realize it. Men who aren't salivating like cavemen at the sight of a beautiful woman are labled gay or at least unusual and women who aren't trying to turn them on are lesbians or cold. Neither of these are true. We are all being taught to behave contrary to our natural attractions. Those of us who want something different are almost forced to behave in the extreme. It's like being on the losing side of a tug-of-war. We have to pull extra hard in the oposite direction or we will be dragged into the mud.

Dan, your original post is something I've also thought and believed for years. We are the way we are because of society. In your first post, I have probably thought all those things except for being worthless. I'm not afraid to admit that men have the advantage; I am a strong, hard-working, independent woman and mother of a 2 year old boy. I am going to do my best and give everything I can to ensure he grows up knowing what "real" beauty is and how to cherish the "imperfections" that others may have. I do not think of myself as beautiful, if anything I am cute. I am a great person and a great catch for any man. I will do anything I can for the man in my life but won't compromise my own happiness. That's why my sons father is not in the picture; I wasn't happy, we weren't right for each other and we weren't right to continue living the way we were in front of our son. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but let's not sell ourselves short because of someone else's definition of beauty. Thanks Dan for another great atricle!

I read this post this morning and most of the other one. I agree with you that men may be the cause of women having issues with themselves but also I think women are just programmed that way too. Or maybe not programmed but that is what we see growing up from other women in our lives so it just sticks in our heads. Who really knows? I have been with my husband since I was 15 & he was 16. He has never been one to check out other women or ogle them in any way. He truly only has eyes for me. He thinks I am beautiful & sexy, etc. I however still "hate" so many things about me. I think with me though, I say "I hate this" or "I hate that" more to get that positive attention than that I really feel that way. It's a tricky subject in a lot of ways. Anyway, I went to Schlotzsky's for lunch today and just busted out laughing because as I headed to the restrooms I was reminded of your posts. The men's room sign says "Manly Bunz" and the women's room sign says "Shapely Bunz". I wonder if a man thought that up or a woman?

Here's what I think. Women are beautiful. Men's attraction to them is a gift from God. Before sin, in the garden of Eden, man could look at (any) woman and enjoy it in a wholesome way. Since the beginning of time Satan is bent on corrupting every good thing God made. After man fell, making the choice to listen to Satan instead of God, man could no longer enjoy good without it becoming selfish. (Therefore, God made clothes for both of them.) Woman are still beautiful because you (men) are hard-wired that way. Acknowledge that attraction as a wholesome gift from God. Women ARE beautiful. Sexual attraction is meant to lead to a committed relationship and then of course to sexual passion. In the context of marriage, where you are both fully committed, sexual passion is the crowning moment. It's the celebration of love, relationship, commitment, and faithfulness. Permissive society today divorces all that sex is meant to be when it accepts lust as normal and fine and sex as no more than a good thrill.So you're right on about not letting that attraction become a selfish thing where you're taking every "Sue" and "Jane" you see as your own. You did an excellent job in your post, describing where that leads. I echo JenieJjJohnson, in an earlier comment: "You are the most manly man with a love and passion for the opposite sex I've ever come across! You, sir, are what boys want to groe up to be...a real man...who sees, appriciates, and loves real women." My husband is another passionate person about this issue and your honesty is your last post is what real men face in today's world. I am wild about men who are willing to stand up like this and look for truth, for what is REAL. I feel valued and fought for in the presence of REAL MEN like that. (valued for FAR more than just my beauty--and every woman knows how much I value that!) :P Go for it, Dan! Keep asking the hard questions. Life is far more than a set of rules to learn and far more than a game with no rules!

Wow that wad a quick year. It was this article & ur post that I started following u.

Interesting Dan. I agree with some of what you have said, and also feel that much of it could be applied to men or women:

How wo/men view the gender as a whole

How wo/men individually view themselves

--their family members

--their friends

--their lovers

--rivals

--coworkers

How wo/men view media images of wo/men

--beauty

--cultural expectations

--family/friend/self expectations as they relate to those expectations/that beauty

How wo/men are treated by wo/men in their lives

How we teach our fe/male children as it relates to:

--media

--cultural expectations

--family expectations

Speaking only for myself and my parenting, I felt pressures coming from men, women, girls, boys, media, family, friends, school, city, state, etc... but when I went to college, I chose a place I felt comfortable. I chose Eugene, Oregon. Here women can shower or not. We can wear make-up & cute clothes or not. I found a place specifically that suits me as I am that day.

I also come from a family that taught me how to look folks in the eye, shake hands, and have a conversation. They expected me to read books, to learn my studies, to do extracurricular activities, have good table manners, be a trustworthy, fun, capable, participatory friend, and learn to take care of myself by brushing my teeth, doing laundry, cleaning my room, etc. I was told I needed to wear proper clothing for different activities, was not allowed to wear make-up the second I wanted to, was not allowed super-sexy ANYTHING, and was raised to be out in the world with the confidence of knowing I was putting my best foot forward because of skills I'd developed, intelligence and knowledge I'd acquired, and some cuteness from choosing flattering clothing and attractive hair & make-up.

All of us fall victim to the forces out there. But if you have developed a strong inner core, and are passing it along to the children we have and their friends, that's what helps us look at a magazine cover and think perhaps more working out would be a good plan, not eating Cheetos in bed is also a good plan, but we'll also notice the airbrushing, and smile because we know that not even the "perfect" girls can make it without lighting, digitizing, and all manner of "perfecting".

Go ahead and look, watch a little porn, enjoy the view, the real one and the fake one. Just apply what you know to be true when you look.

Surround yourself with good people.

Make educated choices.

And most of all... DON'T OVER-ANALYZE. It's gonna be okay.

It still seems to me like a bit of gaining a bit of self control and having that stuff called personal integrity. Manage yourself.

I think to begin to reconcile the battle within yourself, perhaps you can think about women, both magazine covers images and real women in real life, as works of art in and of themselves, and not comparitively. I myself am "deprogrammed" and have dropped out of dating because of my disappointment. It's difficult to get back in the game, but that's where the learning is and is not necessarily comfortable by design. Thanks for your posts, they are through provoking and always an interesting read.

I think there is a lot of truth in that blog. However, while the "worthlessness" thing is definitely tied into the "perfect beauty" thing, I think its roots run deeper, and I don't think "ogling" per se is the primary culprit - rather the conflation of the ogled object with our (anybody's!) expectations of real people. Ogle all you like - but then turn back to the person you're with, with a smile that shows how much you appreciate THEM, in this crazy world we're all living in. There is, indeed, something horrible and insidious about, on the one hand, thinking of people as "worthless trash", and, on the other hand, spending large amounts of time and energy trying succeed at the impossible task of achieving "value" based on someone else's programmed criteria - but ultimately it does, in fact, come down to one's own awareness of just who it is that is keeping score.

Holy crap......awesome quote.

This came at the perfect time for me to read today. I have been spending the last few days trying to figure what was wrong with me and why I wasn't good enough for the last guy I had gone out on a date with. Only to sit here and remember what the hell am I doing? I am not one to blame men for my self esteem issues, hell I can blame my parents, the media , even my sister and her friends growing up. But to blame men in general for my self esteem? no. I can blame them for the way they have treated me this past year, the lying to just use me to get me into bed or pretending it was the best first date ever and they couldn't wait to see me again, just to never call ( because they weren't going to get me into bed) or maybe I wasn't that girl for them, or acting like I was amazing only to find " I'm really not looking for anything serious" once I was already played. I can blame those particular men for the nights of crying, for me feeling sad or stupid because I fell for it. But to blame them all? That's like men saying every woman is a bitch. No we aren't. I work out, I cook, I go to school, I work full time, but you know what I hate cleaning, I do it because I have to but I hate dusting and vaccuming. I'm not perfect and I don't want to be. I don't have low self esteem all the time, I am not a perfect 10, hell I'm not even an 8 to some people but I like me and I wont blame anyone for my bad days they are just my self doubting days and we all have them. It's okay , it's HUMAN. That's all. But damn it, Dan go back to desiring women because once you get us, we NEED you to WANT US, DESIRE US and yes once we are yours, Treat us like that 10 all the time ...

I loved this post, and the followup of worthless men. I agree to a point. But I do think you focus a bit too much on the physical, and the media. Sure the media is partially to blame...and if we didn't support them they wouldn't use the "perfect" models. But the problem isn't necessarily physical attraction. Physical attraction, as you've discovered, is important and necessary in relationships. Perhpas men have become unable to be attracted to real women. That's a problem, for both sexes, and likely contributes. But the area you neglected to focus on is men's attitudes, preconceived notions, and their general treatment of women. For all of women's equality, men (as a generalized whole, not necessarily individuals) still seem to act as though they are doing women a favor when they treat us as equals. Helping out around the house is not a FAVOR you do for your wife/girlfriend. It is your DUTY has a human being, a homeowner/renter, and a co-habitator. By picking up where you live, helping with chores, and parenting men are NOT so kindly helping us out. They are doing what they should be doing. Somehow the thinking that it’s the woman's job has prevailed. Women's equality is not all about bringing women "up" to the standard of men...sometimes its bringing men "down" to accept more of the responsibility women have shouldered throughout history...it’s about sharing, supporting, cooperating and compromising....on BOTH parties. It is absolutely under no circumstances my responsibility to work; do most parenting; keep track of the house; the bills; the housework and chores; the birthdays and holidays; pampering and stroking man's ego; all the while keeping myself, the house, the kids and our life perfect. In order to elevate the equal stature of women to men, men have to be willing to accept some of the responsibilities women have taken care of...because they aren't, which just leaves women having to do more...be the equal partner they want to be but still pick up the slack where men fail. This is the culprit....women try so hard to be and do everything....because with increased "equality" in traditionally men areas, the equality is not reciprocated in traditionally women areas...which leaves women having to do more than their share.

Women contribute to this problem by allowing men to treat them this way...by accepting it as the way things are, as the price they have to pay for being "equal." I myself am guilty, because it’s easier and less maddening to just do it than to try to deal with the condescending attitude of those (ie my husband and others, even other women) who think as I described above. My own self-doubting thoughts are easier to deal with because I own them. I can't control others' responses but it sure is a pain in the backside to fight what seems like a never-ending, losing, uphill battle. I’ll take my own thoughts, thanks, rather than subject myself to dealing with that crap. Which, in turn, condones that behavior. It’s a vicious circle.

Until men's *thinking* and opinions change about women, men and their so-called "roles;" until women stand up for themselves and demand reciprocal equality; until we can be equal partners who mutually appreciate each other; media and physical attraction can't beat the problem. I truly believe if men especially can conquer this, they will be able to find beauty and be attracted to real women because they will respect them. For the most part, even those that *say* they do, men do not respect women. They fall victim to this perpetual thinking of roles...men refuse to be "feminine" and do "girl things" while women gladly change tires, earn money, move boxes, hunt, etc. Ultimately, even if they think they respect women, succumbing to this idea that they can't or shouldn’t' do "womanly" things just tells women that men are too good/manly/busy/important to do "that kind" of work. So women push and do more, what has to be done and what they want....because someone has to do it. Then we feel guilty/powerless/worthless/disregarded/disrespected/etc. when we can't do it all....because for all the pushing and standing up for ourselves, frankly I get tired of pushing and doing all the work. Men need to do the work too....they need to push and change too, it’s not women's job to make themselves equal...it is everyone's job to make everyone equal. Working so hard and doing so much leaves only so much time....so women tend to neglect their relationships and themselves....Men want to be attracted to women? Do the dishes or vacuum the floor....show your girl you care about her, you aren't too "good" for that work...and guess, what? She will feel better about you, the relationship, and herself...and she will have time to make the effort to be attractive. Nothing is “girly” and nothing is “manly.” There are only things that need to be done. Suck it up and do it, whether its “your job” or not…and the whole world will be a happier, more positive place.

There's a great book for preteen or teen girls called Reviving Ophelia and it talks about body image etc just in case anyone with daughters is looking for help with this subject :-)

I THINK IT ALL COMES DOWN TO FINDING, "THE ONE" BECAUSE WHEN YOU DO, ITS ALMOST LIKE THE PHYSICAL ATTRACTION NO LONGER MATTERS, IN A SENSE... YOU WILL RATHER BE FOCUSED MORE SO ON BEING CONNECTED, CLOSE, KNOWING EVERYTHING ABOUT THE OTHER PERSON THAT EVERYTHING/ EVERYONE ELSE THAT YOU'VE WORRIED ABOUT... WILL JUST DISAPPEAR! AND I DO THINK THAT BEING ABLE TO LOVE YOURSELF AND LOVING OTHERS ALMOST GOES HAND N HAND. I DONT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT LOVING YOURSELF OPENS DOORS TO MORE OPPORTUNITIES, MORE WISDOM, A GREATER ABILITY TO LOVE DEEPER, TO CARE STRONGER, TO BECOME UNSELFISHLY HELPFUL!

BUT THEN AGAIN ITS ALMOST CONTROVERSIAL, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES, PEOPLE NEED OTHERS TO LOVE THEM FIRST BEFORE THEY CAN START TO LOVE THEMSELVES!

I GUESS IT ALL JUST BOILS DOWN TO "LOVE" GET THE WISDOM IN LOVE AND JUST LOVE NO MATTER WHAT!!

EVERYONE PLAYS A ROLE IN EVERYONES LIVES... MAYBE WEIRD BUT ITS TRUE! EVERYTHING EVERYONE SAYS OR HOW THEY TREAT YOU REFLECTS ON WHO YOU ARE, WHO YOU BECOME, WHO YOU WANT TO BE. WE ALL HAVE A CHOICE ON HOW TO DEAL WITH SUCH ISSUES. ITS UP TO US, TO BE THE BETTER PERSON. TO BE THERE WHEN SOMEONE NEEDS US, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES! ITS NOT FOR US TO JUDGE OR TO UNDERSTAND ALWAYS.... SOMETIMES IT JUST "IS"

SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, SOMEONE WILL SEE/ FEEL THAT LOVE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN IT'LL CLICK AND IT COULD BE LIFE CHANGING FOR THAT PERSON!

DON'T WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT ISSUES THAT REALLY DON'T MATTER! JUST BE YOURSELF! SOMEONE WILL LOVE YOU FOR YOU SOMEDAY! AND I CAN TELL YOU, SOME THINGS JUST DON'T MATTER THEN.

KUDOS

Sounds like you're searching for the space between giving in to temptation and denying what is natural out of fear of falling for the temptation. It isn't the noticing that might lead to hurt, it's the oggling and obsessing.

@Ashelly... beautifully said! I couldn't agree more! Anyone seen Miss Representation???

I think that is utopian to think that we can just let go of how we were made. Men and women are both attracted to things about the other sex inherently in order to breed. Should we apologize or go against our nature because of that?! I don't think so. Can we fall prey to losing the joy in our attractions due to painful experiences and unrealistic attachments, HECK YEAH! I think you, Dan, are one of the few people--regardless of gender--who is doing the self examination and trying to see what works for you. We all should be doing that so as to do a reset on the extrinsic and focus on the intrinsic needs of who we are and what we desire.

You're also biologically programmed, Dan - to be attracted to nubile (and assumed-to-be fertile) young women as potential mates. That is normal, and the worst urges of biology is what society is supposed to curb. It's the media programming that needs to be corrected - the image of the overly-thin supermodel with silicone breasts and veneered teeth and designer clothing that conceals her nonexistent "figure flaws".It's like a painting by Dali; I admire it in a museum, but that doesn't mean that I'd want it hanging in my den. ;)

(part 2 from Aurora)

What is wrong with our media, our society and our women's self-esteems and our men's expectations, is not the concept of appreciating beautiful sexy women. A man can appreciate, enjoy looking at, and complimenting a beautiful woman in a way that is respectful and makes her feel like a Goddess! and EVERY woman wants that, every woman wants to be appreciated as beautiful and sexy exactly as she is!

The problem is two-fold. First - that the expectation of "what is beautiful" has become unrealistic and unattainable. It didn't used to be this way!! Look at the ancient statues of Goddesses, at the most world-renowned paintings, and the Rubens and at the standards of beauty BEFORE we became insane with photoshop, airbrushing, plastic surgery, and every woman and man now thinking only a size 2, airbrushed 20-year-old is beautiful.

When natural real beauty (for both genders), in all it's amazing forms was celebrated, women and men could feel comfortable and confident in their own skin and bodies and appreciate and enjoy the natural beauty and sexiness of each other!

The second problem is... there is a distinct and very real difference between respectful appreciation and enjoyment of the beauty, sexiness, and attractiveness of a human being... and objectification and dehumanization of that person. There is a different energy and look in a man's eyes when he is truly appreciating, enjoying and respecting a woman for her entire being and all her beauty, inner and outer... and when he is "oggling" her as a "thing" that's only value is his own sexual gratification.

Soooo... please, don't beat yourself up. Enjoy women! Love women! Appreciate the beauty of women! Be attracted! Find us pleasing to the eye and the heart! and recognize that the images on the magazines and in the movies and on billboards, and in porn... they are a problem, because they are FAKE... and when we can turn our society back to appreciating what is Real and of real value again, then things will change on a grander scale.

Namaste!

~Aurora WindDancer

Dear Dan, (part 1 from Aurora)

I've been reading your blog for a very long time now, and I read your post a year ago and shared it around the social networks. I found it a powerful examination of both yourself and our society, but at the time I did not feel compelled to share my thoughts. Now that you have written this post a year later, and openly shared your own struggles and heartaches, I want to tell you I appreciate you and your willingness to be open and vulnerable and honest. It is rare and refreshing, and an excellent example of how to be Human!

On that note, as a woman who does not conform to any standards of "media-approved" beauty, (I'm 35, overweight, have had 4 big babies stretch out my body, single mom, not "perfect")... yet I know that I am beautiful!! I am curvy, soft, sensuous, seductive, intelligent, witty, charming, kind-hearted, generous, loving. I am confident in myself, I smile big and bright. I turn heads on the street and strangers compliment me. My boyfriend is gorgeous, fit, sexy and 26. He thinks I am the most beautiful, most awesome woman on the planet, and he chose me over all the hot, skinny "perfect bodied" college girls he was dating when he met me. ... to be continued cause of character limits

Thanks for being honest, Dan. You're more than welcome to be less than perfect as long as you can be honest about it ;) That said, don't be too hard on yourself. You're allowed to like women. We WANT you to love wooing us, courting us, wanting us. We WANT you to be fascinated by us. Everyone needs to know that they are attractive, and silently pretending that a beautiful woman isn't beautiful can be just as damaging as objectifying her. I think you're more than welcome to appreciate our figures, as long as you can remember that there is a real person attached. But feel free to love women, friend. If there is anything good (real) women need, it's genuine love and admiration :)

I think your original post was spot on. I also think you have some great points in this post. Here is my wish as a woman. I love that my husband likes women because it makes me sure of his manhood. However, I know how much he has always loved me and been attracted to me cause he doesn't oogle attractive girls walking by or talk about how beautiful someone else is. At least not around me. And that gives me a little more confidence in myself and our relationship. I think it is ok for men to have those feelings its just how you act on them that matters. Good luck figuring your feelings out but I think you have done good so far!

I really enjoyed both your posts on this topic. I don't think this is a question with one "right" answer. It is a question that all of us need to internalize so that we can find our own balance. All of us, men and women alike. Unfortunately, that is very hard to do.

I often find myself falling victim to comparing myself to others and finding that I don't meet some invisible standard. I am not as thin, my skin isn't as pretty, I am not as tall, I am not as well-dressed. The list goes on and on. I have to make a conscious effort to take another look and just appreciate that person for all the wonderful things they are without letting it diminish my own self worth. I don't know when this tendency started, but I have the power to change it. I need to surround myself with people who understand and accept me and build that self awareness. I also need to learn to express that same appreciation and awareness for others.

Hopefully your message will strike a chord in many people. Our relationships with each other help define who we are as people. We have the power to make that a positive experience. Your attempt to view people for the beauty within them is a shining example of how true loving relationships should be. We can't entirely block out the world around us, but we can affect our little piece of the world every single day. The most important relationship to mend is the one with yourself. It is impossible to be in true meaningful relationships with others if we don't love ourselves.

Thanks again for sharing!

Once again Dan, ur words astounded me...u actually live life: watching, noticing, listening, hearing, taking part and taking notes. Too many (men) just go thru the motions...day to day...never really sucking up all life offers in our faces every second of every day. You, gay? What a laugh...you are the most manly man with a love and passion for the opposite sex I've ever come across! You, sir, are what boys want to groe up to be...a real man...who sees, appriciates, and loves real women. Kudos, Dan...

I read your post a year ago and thought that I would read it again, revisit it like you. So, when I read it a year ago it really pissed me off...and at the time I could not really say why. You know when something just does sit well with you but you find it hard to put into words why. I think now, a year later, I can finally put into words why. It really bugged me that you put one of our biggest problems in society on men. I have no problem acknowledging men have been in control in this country...so maybe in that respect they have "set a tone" for the highly misogynistic world we live in. However, this is a problem we as a society need to acknowledge and attack regardless of our gender. By putting it all on the men you are simply propagating the problem, giving them all the control. Saying it is the male's sole responsibility to "fix" it, and the only way women can help is by dressing modestly. Really? You talk about trying really hard to view women as more than just their appearance, but the solution to the problem is by us hiding our appearance?

P.S. Look at my profile pic... That's a real woman and to this day, I think Marilyn is one of the sexiest women to ever exist. If only she had known this....

Dan, I believe that the middle ground is really hard to find, mostly because, depending on the woman you're with, the middle ground is different. Many years ago, I was in a long term relationship with a guy I had no doubt was into me, so when he said someone was hot or girl at the grocery store flirted with him, it didn't bother me. I knew that it would make things more interesting, if you know what I mean. Now, more recently, I dated a guy that made me feel like crap about myself every chance he got. Constantly compairing me to women I would NEVER look like or compairing my "bad qualities," to those of his ex-wives... I can't believe one woman married him, let alone two. We've all been treated with disrespect and its really hard not to hold on to that, for fear the next guy is going to be the same way. Both men and women need to want to find the middle ground and its different with and for everyone. I still agree with your post from a year ago, I believe we're held to an unrealistic high standard. In REALITY, they have flaws just like the rest of us. We just have to choose to accept those flaws and love people anyway. If we can't then, well... We are the one with the issue, not the other party. I'm done holding every man hostage for the mistakes of the last. However, I won't hesitate for a second to leave, if the next guy treats me the same as the last.

I think the word "beautiful" just like the word "love" in the english language is too vague. Other languages have so many different words to describe kinds of love and kinds beauty. I think seeing the people on covers of magazines as physically attractive is different than thinking your wife or significant other is beautiful inside and out as a person which also means they are physically attractive. Lusting after the people on magazines would be a whole different thing. I liked your first post, I like this post. I think media needs to change overall for society to change. With our continuous connection to media through tv, phone, internet, etc it's hard to avoid their view of what we should think is pretty. I really enjoyed the Dove campaign on beauty in all shapes and sizes because it showed up in the media. Keep writing and one day you will find your own beautiful one who will love that you don't oogle her (I know I would love that!).

I don't think there's anything wrong with finding the women on the magazine covers beautiful. They are beautiful! We just need to be aware that theirs is not the only kind of beauty and we need to appreciate all the different kinds. Also, we have to keep in mind that while attraction is the spark that starts the flame, beyond that it doesn't feed the flame. It's a byproduct of the flame. Fuel for the flame is much more substantial than sparks. And you have proven it is entirely possible train yourself to become attracted or not attracted to certain things. There's no reason we can't fine tune our attractions.

This was the post that started me reading your blog. You hit, on the head, without introducing religion, why objectifying women is harmful to men, women, children and the very fabric of society that binds us as social animals, so to speak. When you remove the intrinsic human value of any component of a society, you've destabilized it. I will continue to link this post anytime I want someone to read this from a man-who-has-had-an-epiphany's perspective.

read lots of good books on the subject to deprogram myself also. My neices and daughter, rely on me as their example. i never put myself down in front of them...so maybe they will find the beuty in themselves. they are all beautiful to me.