Today I want to write about something that has bothered me for the better part of a decade. I’ve carved out no fewer than a dozen drafts of this post, all strangely unalike, all ultimately failing to accomplish the job I’ve set out to do. Truth is, I’ve been trying to write it off and on for more than a year now, and the right words have been seemingly impossible to come by.
In the end, and in order to post it, I guess I had to care more about the message than I do about potential backlash. I’m not being facetious when I say that I hope I can get this message across without offending… well… everybody.
What I really hope is that this post will spark and encourage poignant and worthwhile discussion that will lead to some poignant and worthwhile changes in the lives of at least a few people who are hurting.
That being said, I believe some strong words need to be said today.
“God hates fags.” We’ve all seen the signs being waved high in the air by members of the Westboro Baptist church. On TV. In real life. It’s hard not to take notice.
Over the years, I’ve watched seemingly never-ending disgustingness and hatred spill across the media airwaves from those who belong to the organization. For those who don’t know much about that “church,” they have made a seedy name for themselves by doing drastic things like picketing beneath atrocious signs and hosting flagrant anti-gay protests at military funerals.
Almost every person of nearly every religion has no problem loathing and condemning the Westboro Baptist Church and its members, and perhaps with reason. They take freedom of speech far beyond what our founding fathers intended when they fought to give us that right, and they laugh at the rest of the world while they do.
But today I don’t want to talk about those idiots. I want to talk about you. And me.
And my friend who I’ll call Jacob.
Jacob is 27 years old, and guess what… he’s gay.
Not a lot of people know. He lives in a community where being gay is still very “frowned upon.”
I was talking to him on the phone a few weeks ago, telling him about my failed attempts to write this post. He was trying to hold his emotions in, but he eventually became tearful as we deliberated the very problem that this post attempts to discuss.
Before I go on, I feel I must say something one time. Today’s post is not about homosexuality. It’s not about Christians. It’s not about religion. It’s not about politics. It’s about something else altogether. Something greater. Something simpler.
It’s about love.
It’s about kindness.
It’s about friendship
And love, kindness, and friendship are three things that Jacob hasn’t felt in a long time.
I’m thankful he gave me permission to share our conversation with you. It went something like this.
“Jacob, I honestly don’t know how to write it,” I said. “I know what I want to get across, but I can never find the right words.”
“Dan, you need to write it. Don’t give up. I’m telling you, it needs to be said.”
I paused. “You don’t understand. It’s too heated a subject. It’s something people are very emotional and touchy about. I’d be lynched.”
My friend hesitated. “Dan, you are the only friend I have that knows I’m gay. The only freaking one,” he said.
“What do you mean? I know you’ve told other friends.”
That’s when his voice cracked. He began crying.
“Every single person I’ve told has ditched me. They just disappear. They stop calling. They remove me on Facebook. They’re just gone,” he said. “They can’t handle knowing and being friends with a gay person.”
I didn’t know what to say. So I didn’t say anything.
“You don’t know what it’s like, man. You don’t know what it’s like to live here and be gay. You don’t know what it’s like to have freaking nobody. You don’t know what it’s like to have your own parents hate you and try and cover up your existence. I didn’t choose this. I didn’t want this. And I’m so tired of people hating me for it. I can’t take it anymore. I just can’t.”
How do you respond to that?
I wanted to tell him it was all in his head. I knew it wasn’t. I wanted to tell him it would get better and easier. The words would have been hollow and without conviction, and I knew it.
You see, I live in this community too. And I’ve heard the hate. I’ve heard the disgust. I’ve heard the disdain. I’ve heard the gossip. I’ve heard the distrust. I’ve heard the anger. I’ve heard it all, and I’ve heard it tucked and disguised neatly beneath a wrapper of self-righteousness and a blanket of “caring” or “religious” words. I’ve heard it more times than I care to number.
About gay people.
About people who dress differently.
About people who act differently.
About fat people.
About people with drug addictions.
About people who smoke.
About people with addictions to alcohol.
About people with eating disorders.
About people who fall away from their faiths.
About people who aren’t members of the dominant local religion.
About people who have non-traditional piercings.
About people who just look at you or me the wrong way.
I’ve heard it, and I’ve heard it over, and over, and over again.
Hell, in the past (and to some degree in the present) I participated in it. I propagated it. I smugly took part in it. I’ll admit that.
And I did so under the blanketing term “Christian.” I did so believing that my actions were somehow justified because of my beliefs at the time. I did so, actually believing that such appointments were done out of… love.
I love you, Jacob.
Me and a good friend recently got into a discussion about what the propor christian response to homosexuality should be. I think that Homosexuality could easily be changed out with any other negative stigma we have on people. I was telling her about how my church back home held events for people struggling with homosexuality. She told me that she thought that was a bad idea. for Christians to try and Fix homosexuals. But the conclusion that we came to was that we believe that helping people within your faith change is not a problem it is when you want to fix those that are not struggling with the lifestyles that they have. We both have many gay friends some of which are the most amazing people that we know. I would never walk up to one of them and try to help them out of that place. But if they came to me and told me that it was a struggle then i would be there for them. If they wanted out I would try to help. I would be there with them and help them with whatever they needed. These are just the thoughts i have right now. But i think that that would be the stance that any belief should have. To love those they way that they need it right then. This is a huge struggle and change for me growing up in West Texas where acceptance is not always taught.
I agree. As a Gay man, who grew up in Texas... I agree. Who cares??? I'm not hurting anyone, nor does my sexual orientation affect/effect your life. I think and WISH that straight people who don't care, would put up more of a fight and be MORE vocal about being okay with gay people... It's the ONLY way people will learn. They'll learn from others, they'll see how you treat gay people, and begin to change minds... Just my $0.02.
@Tyler You might find it hard to believe that this straight Christian has been putting up a fight since the 90's. And there are many of us out there speaking out against those who oppress others. For me I find it appalling that many use God as an excuse for their prejudices. It seemed like a Mount Everest size problem back then, now the problem seems to be dissolving. I am amazed at how much has changed over the last few decades and huge strides are being made for equality.
There will always be those who will be prejudiced, but we all must speak against it when it rears its ugly head, no matter who is being targeted.Even those who hide behind scripture, God or even those that hide their prejudices behind the slogan--hate the sin, love the sinner--you will know them by their fruits.
@Tyler Some of us straighties are trying, brother.
http://evolequals.com/2012/09/03/defriended-2/
Maybe, just maybe, we should stop looking at anyone else's sins and start concentrating on our own. Quit looking to other people to live the way you think they should, and instead, live YOUR life in a Christ-like manner.
@Jennifer Atkinson God Himself loves the sinner & hates the sin. Humans get that messed up in that we make the sinner the sin & hate them. :( Sad. If we remember to check the phone pole in our own eye before talking of the splinter in the other person's eye, this world would be better for it. ;)
@Jennifer Atkinson Which means loving EVERYONE regardless of any faults, whatever they may be. Right on!
I think there are christians that think differently on the issue of being gay but also I think the vast majority think in a way that is based strictly on ignorance and fear. Faith is the excuse that many use to unburden themselves from the responsibility of actually thinking. The bible says so therefore it is true. I see it here even in those that claim ro be putting forth a compassionate version of christianity. Sorry, I do not buy it. I have been abused all my life by christians. This is what they have to live with. I am sorry if as a christian you feel abused or shamed but please do feel something. To me it is like someone saying..."I am a Nazi but not one of those bad Nazis, really, they do not speak for me. I am one of the good Nazis." The understanding that needs to happen is that christians need to THINK and stop being hateful and discriminatory towards and about Gay people. That is quite simply it. Here are a few facts that might help you achieve that within yourself.
1. Being gay is not a choice.
2.Being Gay is not a lifestyle.
3. Being Gay is being human and not all about sex.
4..Being gay is not a sin.
5.. Gay people do not need your approval.
6. Gay people will continue to work towards being treated equally and with respect in spite of Christianity.
So, After studying a book of fairytales you continue to think that being gay is wrong, (By the way you have no gay friends if you think this way and for obvious reasons.) I say go for it. You disagreeing with, "Homosexuality", means less then nothing. It is just hatred disguised as faith, Agree or disagree all you like. Gay people exist with or without your ignorant opinion. I am sorry if you and like minded christians feel that this is harsh and you are being persecuted for your ignorant beliefs but really... Someone comes up to you and points out to you an immutable aspect of your humanity, let's say eye color and says you it is an abomination and awful and sinful and treats you as less then human because of it and not only this but God says so. How does that feel? Now multiply that by millions of people that feel the same way about it and let's name them Christians. How do you feel about it now? One person you might laugh at. Millions who effect how our lives are run and culturally based that oppresses you for that trait? Not a good thing.
I understand my oppresser and I know their name.
@FrederickKahrs I understand how you feel Frederick, this is one of the many reasons I will not call myself a christian, although I love Christ and believe with my whole heart and soul HE would be fighting for gay rights and an accepting compassionate world. The biggest problem with christianity is christians, but not all christians, just the ones that think they are above everyone including Christ as they try to do what he clearly said not to do...judge others.
And I can hear from the tone you may not believe that I can love Christ and be loving to my fellow living breathing creatures who share a planet, but I do. So much so that it's this kind of oppression and others, including to animals, that keeps me up nights, breaks my heart a little more everyday, and at times has me very depressed feeling like, if I could just get people to see and explain, in common sense terms, they would have to agree and we could get along and not hurt one another anymore. I hope you will allow some of us that love Christ to prove to you we aren't christians.
Peace, Kathleen
I agree with this whole-heartedly. However, I fear that for some people, they will use this to shame Christians (or anyone, really) who don't support homosexuality. I am a Christian and my conviction, after studying scripture, is that sexual relations between two men or two women is wrong. Now, this does not make me look at gay people negatively (I have many gay friends and family members who I love dearly). Furthermore, I support civil rights for the gay community regardless. I do not shame them, reject them, condemn them, or think myself better than them. Nonetheless, I do not support that lifestyle and that does not make me a cruel person.
I would never try to impose my conviction on someone else, but I think it's a little irrational to brand Christianity as being heartless if it refuses to reject the concepts of evil, temptation, and sin. Christianity isn't all about compassion and forgiveness. You can pick and choose passages all you like, but if you're serious about understanding the bigger picture, the gospel is not just about love. It's about becoming a better person. It's about rejecting darkness, whether that be in the form of fornication, addiction, prejudice, vanity, etc. Christ did not just preach about love. He didn't throw morality out the window and say "All that really matters is love." Love is the basis of it, but sin is still a prevalent theme--without its existence, Christ's death is meaningless.
Christianity without sin is empty. Christ's love isn't an excuse for sin. It's supposed to expose our darkness and inspire us, even encourage us, to change.
Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is that Christianity can still believe in sin and that's not a bad thing. Me disagreeing with homosexuality doesn't mean I think I'm better than gay people, nor does it mean I'm condemning them. You can still be compassionate without sacrificing your convictions. Disagreement does not equate to intolerance, and I think it's crucial that we recognize that.
@IraCole Ira, your comment seems to be heart felt and your intentions well meaning, but from my perspective, there are some rather big contradictions in what you said. The core question is what constitutes a sin? There are six "clobber verses" in the Bible that are trucked out whenever someone chooses to label homosexuality a "sin". Some of those verses clearly only apply to the time and culture when they were written (Leviticus for example. I don't think today people are urging that disobedient children be put to death, as Leviticus commands). With the Sodom myth, most Bible scholars identify the "sin" there to be inhospitality not homosexuality. The other verses depend upon the translations of key words from the original Hebrew, to Greek, then Latin, and finally English (lots of room for mistranslations there). So claiming that something is a "sin" ONLY because of these six murky verses does not seem fair or accurate. In fact, blindly accepting something as "true" with no personal evidence to support this just degenerates one's faith into pure dogma.
God gave humans the ability to think and reason. I suggest we use that gift when trying to determine if something is a sin. I can agree with the Bible that certain acts are sinful: lying, adultery, murder, theft, cruelty, etc., because these are conscious acts where innocent people are hurt. Homosexuality is not an "act", it's a human condition determined at birth (like heterosexuality). Between consenting adults, it hurts NO ONE (and, yes, sexuality can be used in abusive, hurtful ways, but that's true for both homosexuality and heterosexuality).
I don't think that anyone in this forum is advocating "Christianity without sin". But let's just be careful what we decide is a "sin". If you claim that homosexuality a "sin" while heterosexuality isn't , then, in spite of your protests otherwise, you are in fact saying that heterosexuals are better than homosexuals. And, in spite of your "many gay friends and family members", you are declaring yourself (presumably a heterosexual) as better than them in this one arena. It's nice that you don't impose these convictions on anyone else, but you ARE making a judgement here. That's all right on it's own (we all make judgements), but if you're going to judge someone, be fair in your judgements and base them on reason along with faith. So I'm sorry: you may be a very decent, loving person but, from my perspective, you are acting intolerantly in this one matter.
One final point: this is not some kind of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" type debate. This is an issue that affects the lives and happiness of millions of people. Most gays and lesbians just want to live their lives with dignity and acceptance. Taking the position that the love that they feel for their partners is "sinful" unlike heterosexual love, is very hurtful, and, yes, even cruel. Obviously you have a right to your beliefs, but by condemning homosexuality (and yes, you are condemning it) without an adequate basis is NOT acting in a loving or compassionate way.
@timqz1 @IraCole You don't know me, so leave your assumptions out, please.
For the sake of understanding, I will tell you that I prefer men and women. However, due to my convictions, I have refused to pursue men and I am in a happy, committed relationship with a woman who is the love of my life--marriage is in the near future.
Now, firstly, I did not just simply read the Bible and blindly accept what it had to say. For you to claim that about me is insulting. I am fluent in Hebrew and ancient Greek and have read the Septuagint, the Gospels, and the Epistles in their original languages. I am also about to achieve my doctorate in theology and biblical studies. I don't need to be lectured about the components of scripture. If anything, I should be teaching you.
You are right in being cautious about determining what laws in the Septuagint are relevant in the modern era. However, if you are too liberal with that thinking, every single law can be done away with. That is a dangerous mindset, that you can just disregard laws because you can make a case that they are no longer relevant. Some contextualization is healthy, but too much and you will strip scripture of any basis of truth or purpose.
In your case, as well, you are consumed with personal bias and emotion instead of actually being logical when scrutinizing scripture. That is dangerous, too. God gave humans the ability to think and reason, eh? Well, reason is distorted when passion is not kept in check.
You obviously don't understand that disagreeing is so far from intolerance. Nor does it seem you are capable of comprehending the concept of "hate the sin, not the sinner," as the cliche goes.
God disagrees with many things, like idolatry, for example. But does that mean He refuses to love those who worship false gods? His words would say otherwise.
Here's an example. Say that your mother is a frequent liar and gossip. Certainly you would not support her dishonesty. However, does that mean your lack of support for her actions means that you're condemning her or that you don't love her? No. You merely disagree with the particular way she conducts herself.
I disagree with premarital sex. Does that mean I'm ruthlessly condemning teen mothers? I disagree with stealing, but does that mean I wish for the ruination of a man stealing money to supply food for his children? Absolutely not. No matter the intentions, if God declares an action wrong, I refrain from supporting it. But in no way do I wish harm upon the people performing them. In no way do I love them less.
The same goes for gay people.
For the matter, homosexuality is a choice. Perhaps my use of the word is different from yours. When I say 'homosexuality', I mean the sexual actions, not the mindset or the condition. The condition is out of their control, but fulfilling the sexual urges is not. Sexual relations are always a choice and sex does not equal love. I have no issue with two men or two women loving each other. At all. Did I not tell you that I support the legalization of gay marriage? Nonetheless, a man is not born committing sodomy. It is a choice. From my understanding of scripture, sex is reserved for a unified man and woman alone. I do not support gay sex, as I believe it goes against God's prescriptions for sexual expression.
I do not believe "heterosexuals" are superior to "homosexuals". That is a preposterous thing to claim. (Furthermore, for you to suggest that I harbor disdain for my friends and family members who are gay just because of my own convictions is arguably one of the cruelest things I have heard.) I do not believe a man who prefers men is inferior to a man who prefers women.
Am I condemning something? Sure. I condemn gay sex as sin. However, that doesn't mean I condemn the people who practice it, nor does it mean I condemn people for mere preference. Preferences are not actions.
The issue here is that you equate sexuality with identity. Sexuality actually constitutes a small portion of who we are as a whole. That is one of the reasons the gay community is struggling to win their rights. Outsiders only see their sexuality instead of the rest of their humanity. They see a faceless mob consumed with sexual expression instead of seeing neighbors, friends, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters who only want equality.
I do not condemn people because I believe in mercy. I acknowledge both that it is not my place to denounce them and that their sins do not define them, just as mine do not define me. Before I 'judge' a person, I always focus on the contents of their hearts, I look at their character. No one is perfect, and there are things that everyone does that I do not agree with or support. Despite that, I choose to look past their transgressions out of faith in their potential to be good people, just as I hope they would do for me.
The judging I leave to God. I am commissioned to love people as Christ has loved me, and I am determined to live out that commission, regardless of a person's actions.
@kathleen z @TraciRowland
You're welcome!
@TraciRowland great article, thank you.
Double post!! I need sleep! YAY!
The following is a link to an article by Obery M. Hendricks Jr. called "Don't Blame It On The Bible"
You might find it interesting, Ira.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/obery-m-hendricks-jr-phd/dont-blame-it-on-the-bible_b_2884094.html?
@IraCole
I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I've read an article by someone who is, and it's interesting. I will share it with you. And others here.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/obery-m-hendricks-jr-phd/dont-blame-it-on-the-bible_b_2884094.html?
@IraCole @timqz1You seem like a bit of a hypocrite IraCole, with your talk of pride "Understanding is key. The issue, I think, is pride. We're not willing to sit down and listen to what the other side has to say. We're no longer open-minded (and that goes for everyone). If we all try to swallow our egos and strive to be more tolerant of people, then I think the divisions between all of us will start to close. " Because than you go onto say how you support gay marriage but do not support the sexual acts of gay couples, just the loving. You specifically said sodomy, so are two women allowed to love and have sex, but not two men? Or is ALL homosexual sex (even if the couple is married) a sin to you? Are they all suppose to live a sexless married life? Oh and this part, " Before I 'judge' a person, I always focus on the contents of their hearts, I look at their character", Well isn't that big of you since Christ told us his two greatest commandments to us are "To love God with all our hearts and souls, to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, and not to judge" Not to judge, that's his job, and I think that also covers the thing you said about Christ not preaching about love and sends it right out the window...he said it was his GREATEST commandments to us and it was all love and not judging. So if your a biblical scholar how did you miss the most honest, straight forward things Christ said, which HE said were the most important? Think maybe your pride of talking about all the things you read and study and how you should be the one teaching got in the way? I'd say , yeah, maybe a little bit.
@timqz1 @IraCole I only feel the need to be aggressive in a debate when someone displays improper conduct. You made claims about me with no reasonable foundations, only hunches and assumptions (a logical fallacy), and you insulted my understanding of scripture by believing that because our perception of it was divergent, it clearly meant that I was incompetent and ill-informed. Yet you insist you were respectful while I was defamatory?
This is not worth my time. Whatever you have to say, I will not give you the satisfaction of reading it. I came to this article to share my thoughts and to advocate understanding, not to be ridiculed by someone hiding behind a computer screen.
The best to you. Selah.
-Ira
@IraCole @timqz1 Ira, I haven't decided yet whether or not to make the effort to respond to your comment, though if I do, I will have plenty to say. But I just wanted to say this first. I did try to address you and your points in a respectful manner. I wish you had returned the favor. Yes, I don't know you, but I read what you wrote, and I responded to those points. Period. Let's not turn this into a flame war, okay? And let's not imagine insults where none were intended.
@IraCole Thank you so much for this comment. You really said it all - Christians are no more uniform in our beliefs than any other group. And what you said about love is so spot-on...and a reminder I really needed to hear!
I think if Christians and gays put a little more effort into understanding each other, it wouldn't be so necessary to write/read blog posts such as this one.
@Tiffani @IraCole I agree. I think it's important to note that Christians aren't the only ones misunderstanding people--people often misunderstand Christians, too.
Understanding is key. The issue, I think, is pride. We're not willing to sit down and listen to what the other side has to say. We're no longer open-minded (and that goes for everyone). If we all try to swallow our egos and strive to be more tolerant of people, then I think the divisions between all of us will start to close.
I was 35 years old before I picked up the courage to tell my family that I was gay. Thankfully it all turned out better than I thought it would. My mother, a very devout Christian, showed me the true meaning of "unconditional love" <3 My sisters, my brothers-in.law, my nieces and nephews, and my closest friends - they are all still here.
It is from people who don´t know me I get the most hate. The ugly looks as I walk past. The snide remarks. The pointing and whispering.
I have struggled for a long time with my Christian faith and being a homosexual. But whenever I have a bad moment and think to myself that God doesn´t love me, I feel this incredible love fill my heart. I think that is God´s way of answering me that he does love me. That is enough for me :)
As a Christian, I fully support this. I consider myself an ally of the gay community - I have gay friends and we've never had a problem. I don't buy into the message Westboro church and other churches are displaying. Jesus ate dinner with tax collectors and prostitutes, and there are people who won't break bread with upstanding members of the community in respectable careers because they are gay or struggle with addiction, etcetera. And for the Christians who even believe homosexuality is a sin, the Bible preaches the repentance of sin, not the persecution of sinners. It also preaches that no sin is above or below another - and judgment against your neighbor is indeed a sin. So your judgment of a gay person's life is just as "Sinful" as what they are doing. Personally, I don't think anyone should be involved with anyone's personal sin beyond the person and God. Some churches are turning around. Some churches are realizing that church should not be a Saint Club - full of people who pretend to seem like perfect Christians - but serve more as a hospital, or rehab - people sick and tired, openly struggling with "illness" or "addiction" (sometimes literal) seeking some sort of community of others who understand, and seeking Holy comfort. Many churches in America (I've heard the west is the most progressive in not doing this) still subscribe to older ideals of isolation and judgment. I'm hoping this new generation of Christians, those who have been raised in a slightly more accepting society (for it's much better than it was when our parents were growing up) will be able to change their churches into temples for everyone.
I don't know if it helps Jacob to know that over 400,000 people (the number of likes at the time I read this) would gladly be his friend, but I know how Jacob feels, I am not gay. I am fat. People dislike me as much as they dislike gay people. Because I am fat. Perhaps it's not the same, because unlike Jacob I can change how I look. Jacob can not change how he feels. But it is as difficult to change how I look as it would be for Jacob to lie and be with a woman. (or almost as hard) I would like to be accepted for how I look but that's an on going battle too. It is not illegal to discriminate against me. I can be refused a job because of my weight. I can not go on carnival rides because i am too heavy. I have to buy 2 seats on airplanes. And imagine how people look at me when I go out to eat. HOW could I eat when I look like this? Do I not have any pride in myself? Am I not disgusted by myself? I have had people say the rudest things to me. An older gentleman said to me in a grocery store once that I was too fat and had no business buying groceries. I kid you not. I had an older lady say to me at a restaurant that it looked like I already had enough to eat. I've had people look at me with bug eyes or laugh and point. I've had people yell rude comments out their car windows. (too filthy to repeat) I've heard it all. So I know what it feels like. I try not to judge others myself (any others) I would like to think this artical will help people think. But I highly doubt it will because people will always think their thought process is the "right" way to think.
@JanycePhillips Bell <3
A few years ago, I found out my son was gay. Actually, I had always known in my heart. It is not a choice people make and it disgusts me that there is so much hate in this world, especially by the so-called Christians. God loves everyone. Everyone. My son is the most awesome person. My heart breaks for your friend, Jacob. My son lives in New York City. Maybe Jacob should move somewhere a little more cosmopolitan than where he is now!
Thank you so much for this
Please let "Jacob" know that there are many people out there who love him, even without meeting him. He is our brother, and he deserves as much love and respect as anyone else. Maybe, when he feels lonely, that can help.
I agree. Regardless of "religion" people should just love. I know may religions were mentioned but since I am a Christian that is the one I can speak about. God has his commandments and teachings, I think some "Christians" get so caught up in being "Christian" they begin to hold everyone accountable as "Christians" and then forget how Jesus above all else loved, everyone. You don't have to get along with everyone or like everyone but this world needs more humanity even towards those whom @Night sky refers to, even the criminals. Hate will only cause more hate as well as love will only cause more love.
Ok, I see and hear your message loud and clear but to lump together someone of a different sexual orientation, religion etc and someone who has no sense of right, hurts others for their own gain should not be included in the idea of not turning a cold shoulder to make the worlds better. In every example of people being different you mention one of these three; gang banger (out killing others and bullying others to take control of a territory for illegal purposes no matter who it hurts), drug user (supporting and taking part in illegal activities that take from others and destroy a community and drug dealers, taking advantage of those with addiction for their own gain, destroying lives etcetera). {* I will even add the illegal immigrants for their own gain breaking the laws and taking away what others have worked so hard for the right to earn a real wage and hold up this country instead of taking from it to support another*}. you place these individuals in the same group as good people who don't take advantage of others and say love these criminals who destroy what others work so hard for, and say love the gang banger who shoots up your kids school, dont ing nore but love the guy with a gun in his pants selling drugs at the local gas station. If your point is to show others that love and acceptance is the way to a better world these individuals would just overrun anyone who treated them this way and not think twice. I grew up in a community with a lot of legal immigrants from all over the world from india to asia to europe, etc and These different people where amazing people who worked harder to come here strengthen this country and be part of it not destroy it. to lump what 2 men do in a bedroom with these criminals destroys your argument. When I meet someone who is a criminal I don't love and accept them I do wish they get what they deserve nor Will I give them a warm welcoming acceptance. that in naive in the nature of life. Now to say someone who is overweight or unattractive, or gay or looks/dresses odd, or of this religion or that is the same as the criminals is very insulting. I am not of an organized religion but believe in what you term as love, I enjoy the company of good people and love learning about those who are different than I. I think you tried but missed your mark. I am a protective individual who believes strongly in the constitution and the founding ideas of this nation. If someone wants to tattoo their face its their right (though I completely understand that that choice diminishes their future options in life so the worst I do is shake my head and disagree with their beliefs as I would with someone of a religion who thinks I'm going to hell for not going to their church).
I believe not one of us deserve to stand before the thrown of God. Thus none of us have the right to judge and criticize others. It disturbs me too, and I have posted my comments on a radio show, I was a guest on the other night. People judge and look down on others in the church, yet our churches are full of people who lie, steal, abuse children, use porn, are pedophiles, commit adultery, on drugs, are proud, haughty, and anything else to numb the pain or make themselves feel better. This is why our churches are not filling up, too much religiousity,, and not enough spiritual connection with our Father. I thank Him for being my solace at night, my one true constant companion, and the lover of my soul. This is the kind of relationship we should have with God. God asked us to be His hands and feet, not His head to judge. He has that covered. We are here to lead by example.
Connie Lee via Annie O SullivanFridays show has been called the best ever! If you missed it go check it out in the archive :-)
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/butterflydreamsabuserecovery/2013/05/04/can-you-hear-me-now-w-annie-osullivan
@ConnieLee One of the downfalls of the Christian religion is the belief that none of us deserves to be loved. We all deserve to be loved, especially by God, who commands us to love one another, even our enemies. When all of us Christians understand what love is AND that we all deserve love, AND when we stand in love, that's when most of the problems that you list cease to be problems. Christians do not lead by example when they believe they are not deserving to be love, but are accepting of themselves enough to accept the unconditional love that is given by God. Just as children deserve to be loved by their parents, we deserve to be loved by God as his children, and we are.
@Ono @ConnieLee Beautifully said, Ono. I never understand how some Christians are so determined to present themselves and others as "unworthy of God's love" just for being human. Buddhism believes we all have "Buddha nature", that is, we are all Buddhas, even when our minds are clouded by ego and ignorance. The Christian concept of original sin seems to say the opposite: we are all deserving of damnation, but God graciously spares some of us from hellfire anyway.
@timqz1 @Ono @ConnieLee
It's not a Christian concept, it is a concept Christians have been taught by preachers who wanted to guilt their congregation into returning. God often says "I am pleased with you" in the Bible. The point is that human nature itself is very flawed and should be unworthy of love, but God assures us that, despite that, he still love us. It is very much like a parent's love : it's always been there and can't be earned nor destroyed - for all logical reasons, it shouldn't be there, but it is and will never be tarnished.
If your friend, who I'm assuming isn't actually named Jacob, would like some more FB friends feel free to let me know. I live in Texas and post horribly geeky and schmoopy stuff, but I'm always up for more friends. :)
A beautiful post!! I feel the same way, but don't think I could have stated or written it as eloquently as you. I try to "put my arm around someone" every chance I get. I will be sharing this.
My story; I was bullied all through high school, I had low self esteem, I was physically & verbally abused by a boyfriend, I am a person living with AIDS and I am Gay.
I am Christian and I am that way no matter who you are. And I will love you no matter who you are. Because I want to...because i am called to...and because God gave us free will. To make our own choices, not for me to make them for you. Dan you said the way I have been saying it for years verbally. Less eloquently on my part but been saying it since I became a believer. Point in fact. Thou shall not judge for measure for measure, so shall you be judged.
Great commentary about Jason Collins, the NBA player who just came out as gay. Check it out.
http://current.com/shows/viewpoint/videos/john-fugelsang-talks-jason-collins-tim-tebow-and-whats-really-in-the-bible/
Beautiful post!
I have watched this so many times, every time I cry.
http://youtu.be/hlVBg7_08n0
@Jgree I always cry. So proud to have such a powerful artist come from the same state as me!
Imagine a world where "gay" was "straight" and "straight" was "gay". How would you live if you couldn't love?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3ROXTFfkcfo
Nursedekk, don't worry about comments about our intelligence. I just hope people them never have to fly in a plane (there are loads of Christian pilots), never have to go in hospital etc (there are loads of Christian doctors and nurses) so since we are of lower intelligence they would be putting their lives at risk doing the aforementioned.
@Kievjoy Not to mention the fact that if we are raptured up while flying you in the plane or operating on you, you're in trouble!
@ssibert @Kievjoy If I'm raptured I wouldn't be in trouble. If the pilot is raptured and I'm not, THEN I'd be in trouble.
@Kievjoy Kievjoy, I'm not saying nor have I ever said that a person lacks intelligence for being Christian. In fact, I believe that there is a lot of deep wisdom in Christ's teachings. But since most Christians don't take every word in the Bible literally, apparently a person does not have to be a Fundamentalist to believe in Christ and his teachings. Why have you decided to do so?
BTW, in your past comments, you have indicated that you do not believe that homosexuality is a sin, and I applaud you for that. But if you choose to believe every word in the Bible literally, then, as I see it, you would have to believe that being gay is a sin. In fact, you would have to support the stoning of homosexuals, at least according to Leviticus. But obviously you don't. How come?
If I were to be operated upon by a surgeon who identifies as Christian, I would have no problem with that in most cases. But if I heard that the surgeon was a Fundamentalist, then I would be seriously concerned. In fact, I would probably insist on another surgeon. Modern medicine is based upon science. Fundamentalism denies the discoveries of science over the centuries. I don't see how you can have it both ways.
timqz1. The Bible says men who have sex with men, not men who love men, there is a big difference.
@timqz1 @Kievjoy Just because millions of other Christians don't believe all the Bible, doesn't mean I have to go with the crowd.
@timqz1 @Kievjoy Something had to make animals etc change bit of a coincidence that the animals just happened to change when they needed to.
Adam and Eve, when Cain killed his brother God put a mark on him so that anyone who found him would not kill him, ergo there had to be other peoples.
@Kievjoy @timqz1 Okay. But that doesn't really answer my question why you have chosen to accept every thing written in the Bible, no matter how improbable, as the literal truth. I'm just curious. A devout Christian could say that evolution is real and that it is guided by God. That seems to me a lot more sensible than saying that evolution is a heresy because if conflicts with the Adam and Eve myth. If you don't want to address this issue, then I'll respect your decision. But I've always wondered why Fundamentalists insist on a literal interpretation of every word in the Bible.
@timqz1 @Kievjoy Do you think adultary should be punished by stoning. men sleeping around with men is on the same lines as a hetrosexual man or woman sleeping around and Jesus said he didn't condemn the woman caught in adultary, but told her to go and sin no more, He didn't actually mention men sleeping with me at all, but when I say men sleeping with men, when I worked in a GU/HIV clinic you'd be surprised at how many men admitted to sleeping with me, but went ape if they were accused of being gay. One man even said he did it for a laugh, but mostly they were male prostitutes who got more money sleeping with men, than being an escort for a woman.
@Kievjoy Um, okay. So if two gay men meet in a bar and have a one night stand, they should be stoned to death?
Kievjoy, seriously, I've enjoyed your comments in the past and I don't want to have a flame war with you. However, I do have a question if you're willing to answer it. Why have you chosen to take the Bible literally? You can still be a devout Christian even if you believe that Adam and Eve, or Noah and the flood are just ancient fables. Millions of other Christians do so. It seems to me that a Fundamentalist believes that if even one word of the Bible is proven wrong, then the entire Bible is invalidated. Is that what you believe? If so, why?