Today I want to write about something that has bothered me for the better part of a decade. I’ve carved out no fewer than a dozen drafts of this post, all strangely unalike, all ultimately failing to accomplish the job I’ve set out to do. Truth is, I’ve been trying to write it off and on for more than a year now, and the right words have been seemingly impossible to come by.
In the end, and in order to post it, I guess I had to care more about the message than I do about potential backlash. I’m not being facetious when I say that I hope I can get this message across without offending… well… everybody.
What I really hope is that this post will spark and encourage poignant and worthwhile discussion that will lead to some poignant and worthwhile changes in the lives of at least a few people who are hurting.
That being said, I believe some strong words need to be said today.
“God hates fags.” We’ve all seen the signs being waved high in the air by members of the Westboro Baptist church. On TV. In real life. It’s hard not to take notice.
Over the years, I’ve watched seemingly never-ending disgustingness and hatred spill across the media airwaves from those who belong to the organization. For those who don’t know much about that “church,” they have made a seedy name for themselves by doing drastic things like picketing beneath atrocious signs and hosting flagrant anti-gay protests at military funerals.
Almost every person of nearly every religion has no problem loathing and condemning the Westboro Baptist Church and its members, and perhaps with reason. They take freedom of speech far beyond what our founding fathers intended when they fought to give us that right, and they laugh at the rest of the world while they do.
But today I don’t want to talk about those idiots. I want to talk about you. And me.
And my friend who I’ll call Jacob.
Jacob is 27 years old, and guess what… he’s gay.
Not a lot of people know. He lives in a community where being gay is still very “frowned upon.”
I was talking to him on the phone a few weeks ago, telling him about my failed attempts to write this post. He was trying to hold his emotions in, but he eventually became tearful as we deliberated the very problem that this post attempts to discuss.
Before I go on, I feel I must say something one time. Today’s post is not about homosexuality. It’s not about Christians. It’s not about religion. It’s not about politics. It’s about something else altogether. Something greater. Something simpler.
It’s about love.
It’s about kindness.
It’s about friendship
And love, kindness, and friendship are three things that Jacob hasn’t felt in a long time.
I’m thankful he gave me permission to share our conversation with you. It went something like this.
“Jacob, I honestly don’t know how to write it,” I said. “I know what I want to get across, but I can never find the right words.”
“Dan, you need to write it. Don’t give up. I’m telling you, it needs to be said.”
I paused. “You don’t understand. It’s too heated a subject. It’s something people are very emotional and touchy about. I’d be lynched.”
My friend hesitated. “Dan, you are the only friend I have that knows I’m gay. The only freaking one,” he said.
“What do you mean? I know you’ve told other friends.”
That’s when his voice cracked. He began crying.
“Every single person I’ve told has ditched me. They just disappear. They stop calling. They remove me on Facebook. They’re just gone,” he said. “They can’t handle knowing and being friends with a gay person.”
I didn’t know what to say. So I didn’t say anything.
“You don’t know what it’s like, man. You don’t know what it’s like to live here and be gay. You don’t know what it’s like to have freaking nobody. You don’t know what it’s like to have your own parents hate you and try and cover up your existence. I didn’t choose this. I didn’t want this. And I’m so tired of people hating me for it. I can’t take it anymore. I just can’t.”
How do you respond to that?
I wanted to tell him it was all in his head. I knew it wasn’t. I wanted to tell him it would get better and easier. The words would have been hollow and without conviction, and I knew it.
You see, I live in this community too. And I’ve heard the hate. I’ve heard the disgust. I’ve heard the disdain. I’ve heard the gossip. I’ve heard the distrust. I’ve heard the anger. I’ve heard it all, and I’ve heard it tucked and disguised neatly beneath a wrapper of self-righteousness and a blanket of “caring” or “religious” words. I’ve heard it more times than I care to number.
About gay people.
About people who dress differently.
About people who act differently.
About fat people.
About people with drug addictions.
About people who smoke.
About people with addictions to alcohol.
About people with eating disorders.
About people who fall away from their faiths.
About people who aren’t members of the dominant local religion.
About people who have non-traditional piercings.
About people who just look at you or me the wrong way.
I’ve heard it, and I’ve heard it over, and over, and over again.
Hell, in the past (and to some degree in the present) I participated in it. I propagated it. I smugly took part in it. I’ll admit that.
And I did so under the blanketing term “Christian.” I did so believing that my actions were somehow justified because of my beliefs at the time. I did so, actually believing that such appointments were done out of… love.
So I have tried to state my beliefs in the kindess terms possible given that they differ from so many here but they have not been recieved that way so at this point I think it's possible I may be doing more harm that good. I will leave this discussion with the following comments.
My intention was not judgement, if there is no way to have a discussion of differing philosophys without the judgement card being thrown then I don't know how there will ever be an open and meaningful dialogue. Proverbs 15:1 says Agentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger. So if your intentions are to bring others around to your way of thinking this might be something to keep in mind.
I wish I could have been eloquent enough to explain that as a human being I would never, have never and will never purposely make another person feel put down or offended with my words, but in the same breath I cannot be a child of God and not be brave enough to stand up under scrutiny and proclaim His word when I see there is a need.
Lastly I want you all to know that this exchange has been meaningful to me. It has made me think more deeply about things, it has made me reflect on my relationship with God and it has made me even more compassionate towards the gay community. I wish that my comments could have been taken on face value but I have a better understanding now of how deeply the hurts have been felt and it has made me more conscious of the fact that I don't want to add to them.
@Karll Thank you for having the courage to say what you believe is Truth. Doing so when you know it will illicit harsh reactions takes guts. :)
The arguements and insults in these comments are ridiculous. I am a Christian, I believe the bible is Gods Word. I believe the following verses to be true:
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
The same as I believe this is what God said: Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. - Which makes me believe sex with animals is not a good idea.
And this: Leviticus 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. - Which makes me believe a man should not have sex with his son's wife.
Leviticus 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. - Which makes me believe a man should not have sex with a mother and daughter or practice polygamy.
I am not about to judge any person GAY, STRAIGHT or OTHERWISE based on what is written in the bible, it is not MY job... but I have EVERY RIGHT to believe the WHOLE bible for what is written and NO-ONE commenting in this thread has the right to tell me that what I BELIEVE is wrong - you know why??? Because that would be just as bad as someone telling a gay person they have no right to be gay - If someone deserves the right to be gay and accepted and proud about it then why on earth do I not deserve the right to be a bible believing Christian?
It seems that those claiming no-one should descriminate against gay people for what they do are doing, are doing a heck of a lot of descriminating against bible believing Christians for what they believe.
And for the record, I strive to treat each person as I would want to be treated, as God would want me to treat them, as Jesus would have treated them and this is regardless of race, age, gender, sexual preference, religion, socio-economic status or any other difference we all have as people.
Perhaps those of you shouting from the roof-tops for gay rights should consider my religious rights - put aside your pre-conceived ideas of banner waving extremists and consider for once that someone knowing what the bible says about homosexuality may also have a very good understanding of what the bibles says about love and based on that in depth whole bible knowledge and the intimate relationship one builds with God from reading and dwelling within Gods Word, they may just be able to live life closer to how God intended, loving all as best they can, not judging and not condemning ANYONE for how they live or what they do in their life.
I don't care who you are, if you cross my path I am going to do the best I can to have a positive interaction with you. If you need a friend and we click, then a friendship is likely. If you are down and out and need money or food - I'm on it. If you comment argumentatively again and again, showing hypocrisy and double standards - it's okay, you're in my prayers.
@Vegemum Wow you are so much better at this than I was. That's exactly how I feel.
@Vegemum You say you aren't about to judge any person, but here you are full of condemnation. Then you pull out the victim card. As a Christian in this country (USA) I can believe whatever I want, I am not persecuted, I don't have to worry about losing my job for being who I am, I can marry (did that), have children (did that), join almost any group I want and not be discriminated against, nor made a pariah.
Perhaps what you are mistaking here, is that you have met a group of people who do not agree with your beliefs. They are telling you that your beliefs are hurting another group of people. That is not discrimination against you as a Christian, it is disagreeing with your beliefs. Please take a moment and try to realize the difference.
What double standards or hypocrisy are you seeing here. Please be specific and maybe we can discuss it. But you have to realize that not all Christians believe as you do. And as far as my gay friends, they have every right to disagree with you, because the beliefs you hold are what is causing them problems in their lives. I believe you even said (I could be wrong that it wasn't you that said this) that you acknowledged they are born that way.
We aren't being persecuted for being Christians, but Christianity has a long, long history of persecution. Until we as a group acknowledge that our actions hurt others as I have mentioned so many times, it will continue.
You want to hold on to the bible verses to justify your own sin of judging, that is your choice. And it is a choice that many Christians are turning away from, realizing the harm that is real to our brothers and sisters, who are the way they are because of how they are born, not because they choose to be, it is who they are as God intended. As more Christians realize this and turn away from the dogma that keeps us all broken, not only in others lives, but our own. Just as we turned away from believing slavery was ok, or killing witches, or stoning disobediant children, because the bible says so, we are turning away from scriptures that harm our fellow gay people. We are doing so because it is not in alignment with Jesus commandments.
I would encourage you to read and reread your bible, focusing on the message of Jesus, praying about it, and try to be open to the possibility that you may be wrong. Because that my sister, is what all of us Christians need to do. Not say focus on and say prayers for the sins of others as a Pharisee would do, but to ask that he works on our own hearts, so that we too love not just the ones that sit beside us in the pews of our churches, but that we love and accept those that are different than ourselves, and that we do it in humility. I believe that when we do the work in our own lives, that's when God can change our hearts.
@Ono@VegemumOno, that post just about brought a tear to my eye. Well done!
My added content to your message would be to reflect on the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV)
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
*******************
"Love God" is the Christian's highest commandment. This parable shows us HOW to do that right here: "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’" plus here: "He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’" The way I read that is perhaps a little broader than you do, but if I were to paraphrase the lesson it is to love everyone in a way that actually helps them. This what all examples of aid have in common. They are loving actions that help people. And not just any people, ALL people, right down to criminals!
If your Christian love doesn't help someone in a way they're likely to thank you for, then you're not doing much to fulfill the highest commandment of all!
@Ono @Vegemum You are amazing Ono. My return to the comments here was "knee-jerk." Your response is beautiful and inspiring as always. It is people like you that keep my hard heart from turning to stone.
@CurtisBeauJackson @Ono @Vegemum I have plenty of my own knee-jerk reactions, It's hard not to have one when being talked to in such a manner. You and I are works-in-progress! However, you had good points about what the bible says you should do, that fortunately we do not follow anymore.
@Ono @Vegemum
Beautifully said!
@Vegemum If you are a Christian you are not suppose to be following the old laws
Christ did come and do away with the old laws....
Galatians 3:23-25 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
@kathleen z @Vegemum I wish it were that simple but it's not. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus says:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
This is one of those seeming paradoxes in the Bible that can be very difficult to understand. Why is it okay to no longer believe circumcision, animal sacrifice, etc., are laws to be obeyed, whereas laws about homosexuality, women's roles in the Church, etc., should be?
@Tiffani @kathleen z @Vegemum Isn't what Jesus came to accomplish, accomplished by his crucifixion and his rising? So the old laws have been fulfilled.
@Tiffani @kathleen z @Vegemum It's called cherry picking.
@Vegemum,
That is pure bovine scat! No one has told you that you must change what you believe. No one!
We have told you we believe differently, and we have told you that your dogma is insulting, hurtful and downright dangerous!
I really don't give a rat's behind what you believe. What I do care about is for you to keep your beliefs, but do not expect everyone to accept your truth as the only truth. And do not use your chosen religious dogma against people of whom you disapprove.
I think no one should discriminate against any group of people. I think that is immoral and ethically indefensible.
How dare you come into this discussion, given the subject and the essay itself, and wallow in role of tthe self-righteous victim! Christians, discriminated against? That's downright laughable.
Fundamentalists of every religion have persecuted and oppressed people who are homosexual for thousands of years. You can ignore the past 2000 years of knowledge and understanding if you want. But I will pose the same (unanswered) question to you that I posed to someone else.
How will you answer, on the day when we must account for our time on this planet, when God asks you why you persecuted, discriminated against and oppressed his children who are homosexual?
@Vegemum While you are at it you can start hunting down women who were not virgins when they got married. We will need to invest in some very large rock quarries for all the stones we will need to stone many of the women in this country to death. Deuteronomy 22.
@Vegemum You say that you believe those verses to be true. Then you go on to say that you will treat each person as Jesus would treated them. Those verses say that you should put us to death. If you truly believe those verses to be true, God commands you to put homosexuals to death. Those verses say nothing about treating and loving gays like your neighbor. Go get your gun and start killing some gays. God commands you!
@CurtisBeauJackson @Vegemum Well we are back to my initial point, Jesus came to save us from those kinds of consequences under the law, thus the "New Covenant". Now all that is required is that we ask Jesus into our hearts, repent of our Sins and believe in Faith that He is our Savior - that was all I was trying to say from the very beginning. Not kill the gays just know that we are all sinners in need of a Savior.
@Karll @CurtisBeauJackson @Vegemum I believe it is hard for anyone to hear that message when you keep tossing the sinner bomb on them. It's a repellent. It might be better if you would just live a life being loving and kind, instead of judging a group of people because they are gay. Loving and accepting goes a long way, not this flaunting of your beliefs to excuse your unkind words to gay people. I hope you do take to heart what your belief does, although you said this in your good-bye post above, I see you take it back in what you said to Vegemum.
Do you know how many Christians have dropped their belief bombs and then left this forum? I would imagine its in the thousands by now. And how many have they repelled by their words in the process? They don't come here trying to reach an understanding, they come here to moan and groan about their beliefs. It's really amazing to watch the parade. I wish you could put on their shoes for as long as it takes for you and all who have come before you to understand that what you say has been the cause of gays being hurt for a few thousand years. It is dangerous for them to be gay, they face being bullied, beaten, murdered, (I need to just record this, I've said it so many times).
I wonder how many times Curtis or Tim, or Thomas have had Christians come in here and declare the sins of others, have put up with the insults to their personhood? I've been watching a long time and it may lull for awhile but it never lets up. The parade is endless, and all it has done was leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
I am heartened however, as I see more Christians becoming aware of the bad fruit of the belief they cling to so tightly, and the harm it does. I hope that someday you will see it too. And the beautiful part of becoming a loving Christian and letting go of doctrine of man and walking the walk of Jesus, is you still are a Christian, just a more loving one when you give up the tirade of dwelling on homosexuals and who they are born to love. And that is a choice you can make that is God-approved, just read Jesus words and his actions and you can know this is true. Worry about working on your own actions.
Happy Fathers' Day everyone.
http://www.upworthy.com/these-dads-kick-ass-for-equality-gently-and-kindly?c=upw1
I would like to share this blog entry that I wrote recently. It's titled "It's the Same Love." I'd love people to read it. I'm a 19 year old college student, but I did try my best to convey my whole self into it.
http://laughingwithelephants.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/its-the-same-love-%E2%99%A5/
My mother is one of those rarely-found remarkable people. She spent her life serving others, caring for the less fortunate, loving those that society often overlooked. She is such a sympathetic, empathetic, genuine person. I have grown to admire her more and more as I get older.
Looking back on my childhood I have realized the ways in which she practiced her love, lived her love, without making a big deal about it (I think even done unconsciously most of the time). The little things really made a huge impact on who I grew up to be. As a single mother who had me later in life we have always enjoyed a very close relationship, and she has continued to be my greatest influence and advocate throughout the ups and downs of my adult life.
As a child my mother never labeled anyone. The foster/adoptive/birth families she worked with as a social worker for 20 years all had equal worth and value, the birth families were no less valued or important than the foster or adoptive families (even if they struggled with abuse or addiction to the point of having the state remove their children). The two wonderful women who lived across the street from us, whose dogs I became best friends with stopping to play with them on the way to and from school every day, were never labeled as "gay, lesbian, or different"...they were simply "Nancy and Karen". The wonderfully artistic, creative, older, colorful mother of my best friend Angel, was never labeled as "poor, hippy, strange, odd, or failure" for choosing to live on the meager income that teaching art provided instead of getting a "real" job or for naming her children beautifully unique names or eating out of the bulk section of the local health food store.
As an adult I have sincerely appreciated the fact that as a child I was never made to feel that anyone in my community was different from me or my family. There were no labels or titles given to anyone, every person and every family was simply appreciated for being wonderful, unique individuals. As such I did not grow up inheriting any prejudices, I was free to make up my own mind about who I wanted to be friends with and how I fit into the world without my family predetermining those opinions for me...this has allowed me to collect a very eclectic group of friends, develop a very open minded world view, to love people for who they are and identify with a much winder range of lifestyles than just that of the popular culture of my hometown community. I am forever grateful to my mother for giving me the gift of non-judgmental love!
@Jessi What a absolutely beautiful gift your mother gave you, showing you the true meaning of love and allowing you and others to just be! There is no truer gift a parent can give their child, how lucky to have grown up in such a blessed home!
I am a Christian and I love my gay friends. I also try to follow the Bible (and when I haven't and dont things "my way because I am so much smarter than God, I have paid dearly.) So while I love them people, I can't support the lifestyle, anymore than I support sex outside of married. And being single, that's something I struggle with. Daily. A lot. Grrr.
But, to be a Christian (to me), is to love like Jesus did. It's not my place to try to change anyone, or judge them. Its my place to LOVE THEM, pray for them and give them to God to work his "magic".
In God's eyes, no sin is greater or worse than another sin. My sin is no better than a homosexual's sin. Sin is sin in His eyes.
I remember reading the story about the lesbian couple who stayed at a Christian's bed and breakfast and how, after finding out they were gay, they were denied a room. Now, if that would have been my B&B, I would have shown them respect and love, with them KNOWING I was a Christian, so when they left that B&B, they knew what the love of God is about.
I'm ashamed of the way some "christians' treat homosexuals. Just know, we aren't all that way. I won't go march in a gay parade for you, but I will offer you a glass of water while you do.
@Dawni Here is a summary of my "lifestyle."
I am a 61-year old woman. I work full-time and I pay taxes. I am a consciousness citizen and I vote in every election. I fulfill every obligation of citizenship as every one else.
I am close to my family, including my extended family. I am responsible for ensuring my elderly parents' needs are met. I am also responsible for managing their finances. I am a doting aunt of three nieces, three nephews and their precious children. I am married to the love of my life. We are faithful, respectful and compassionate to one another
I try to be a loyal friend and a good neighbor. I contribute to my community financially and with my time. I make a sustained effort to recognize and meet the needs of people who are less fortunate than we are, and people who are the outcasts of society.
My wife and I feed and take care of a feral cat colony.
I worship my Creator in a way that is meaningful to me.
I love baseball, photography, cooking, fine wines and entertaining our friends.
Now, please tell me which aspect of my "lifestyle" you cannot support.
@Dawni Homosexuals do not "choose" to be homosexual, they are born that way. Just as you and I were born to be a heterosexual. Using the bible to justify your sin of judging, may be what you need to be praying about.
As a Christian, I would march in support, I do link my arms in total support of who they are, because that is how they came into this world. To follow the dogma of man, instead of the commandments Jesus gave us to love one another and not judge, when it comes to gays is about as bad as justifying slavery, or bigotry of any kind. It's just another form of prejudice from a history with the bible used to put down one group of people or another.
So perhaps you can step down off that pedestal, walk a mile in another person's shoes and truly show the love you say you have for gays. You might be getting there, but you haven't quite made it and I hope you will search your heart and look for a change in attitude towards a fellow human being. I pray for my fellow Christian's who actually do "choose" a lifestyle that puts themselves above another human being.
@Ono Ono, I don't know you and I don't know your life story my comments are in no way meant as an assult or judgement. I just want to say that Jesus walked among many different types of people and He loved all of them. However, you never hear a retelling where He continued to walk among the same people if they were not willing to hear His message and follow Him. "Go and sin no more" he said to the prositute after saving her from stoning. To follow Him means to love everyone but love is not complete acceptance and tolerance of everything. Love can be guidance, love can be support, love can be correction, and love can be discipline. Love is doing what is best for another person even if that means they aren't going to like you very much right now for doing it. Have you ever known a child to go back to their parents as an adult and say "thanks mom and dad for not letting me..." I have said that myself. I completely understand feeling you born a certain way - I believe that is true because we were born into a sinful world and that manifestation comes in many shapes and forms however God came into the world to overcome that sinful nature. I am a sinner I was born with many natural pulls that are not how God asks us to live so I cling to Him and pray for His love and strength to come against it. I fail regularly, but that isn't the point the point is I recognize my sin. The sin can be covered by grace but only if I recognize it and repent of it. My fear with this whole discussion is that we are moving way past acceptance and way past tolerance to saying there is no sin in this. I'm worried that if you no longer believe there is anything sinful about your behavior then there will be no repentance and there will be no restoration. I know this sounds preachy and I know I will be called a bigot and I know I will be labeled a "pray the gay away" person but it is not about any of that. I just love God's people and because I love them and they are my brothers and sisters. If my family member is walking towards the side of cliff there is nothing that would stop me from trying to get them to see the danger and change their course. That is what love looks like to me.
@Tiffani @Karll @ThomasRoss @Ono @timqz1 @Snooterpoot Nope that is correct. Thank you for the clarification.
@Karll @timqz1 @Ono Karil, I'm angry because I've had to deal with "Christians" like you all my life and with their "nonjudgmental" judgements. My hide is a lot thicker now and I live in a safe place with good people, but, decades ago, when I was vulnerable and scared and lonely, I received nothing from "Christians" like you but a boot in the face. Oh, it was a very polite boot, wrapped in pretty, loving words, but it was a boot all the same. You say you're "heartbroken" about the trials that the gays you know have undergone. News flash: you're part of the reason why they suffer. By yourself I don't suppose you do much damage, but multiplied by the tens of thousands of Christians like you, the result is devastating. And terribly cruel, even if unconsciously so.
As far as your line "Someone can care deeply for a person and not fully agree with every aspect of their life", we're not talking about a debate like "You may like chocolate but I like vanilla, so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that." Sexuality is a core part of a person's essence. It determines whom he or she loves and how that person gets to experience intimacy. When you tell a confused, vulnerable gay person that a major part of their essential selves (which cannot be changed) is "not part of God's plan", you can create major havoc in that person's life, even to the point of suicide. In less extreme cases, you can fill a gay person with so much shame and despair that the rest of their lives are diminished drastically.
There is one major distinction between the gay minority and other oppressed minorities. A black person may suffer terribly from a racist culture, but in most cases he grows up in a black family that in turn lives in a black community. A gay adolescent, on the other hand, usually depends for survival and love from people who are straight: family, neighbors, friends, schools. And churches. If the only message this adolescent receives from all these people is that who he or she is is "wrong", can you even imagine how much damage this does?
And no, you're right, you didn't say that homosexuality is "evil and wrong". You used coded buzz words that say the same thing, that it's "not part of God's plan". The language is less harsh, but the meaning behind it is the same.
Finally, the excuse "But my intentions were good" means nothing to someone who has been injured by you. The pain is still the same and is still as damaging.
I don't think you are coming from a hateful place. But I do think you are coming from a complacent one. Since you're not gay yourself, you aren't injured by the homophobia coming from the pulpits, and you can just shrug it off. You don't question those assumptions; because they don't pertain to you personally, you can accept them glibly and just pass them on to others. Not exactly a WWJD reaction. And as far as the claim that gays in turn are "persecuting Christians", are gays trying to take away basic human rights of Christians? Being angry at injustice is NOT being unjust oneself. You Christians dominate this culture and can hardly consider yourselves "oppressed". Though so many of you sure do like to play that card.
@Karll @ThomasRoss @Ono @timqz1 @Snooterpoot Just throwing this out there, maybe it will help us distinguish between harmful judgment and helpful judgment (which I believe is the kind that Karll is trying to express here).
I think Karll is just concerned that you may be viewing God as a "benevolent grandfather" instead of a holy, just Father (Sorry if I'm overstepping and speaking for you, Karll).
http://cslewiswisdom.blogspot.com/2011/06/mercy-detached-from-justice-grows.html
@Karll Karll, Let me put it this way, our sexual orientation is something we are all born with, which means God created homosexuality and it cannot be a sin because God doesn't create sin, he can't, it goes against everything HE is. If you believe homosexuality is not something determined at birth, than you expect us all to believe the millions of homosexual people have chosen to be abused and denied because of some sexual acts, acts that can clearly be done with any gender. So you think they have spent their whole lives fighting for acceptance over an orgasm with a particular gender?
@Karll @kathleen z @ThomasRoss @Ono Karll, If you are referring to the ridiculous notion that their choice to have sex is what makes them "sinners", please, spare me. I've already covered how I feel about the few passages in scripture that mention homosexuality. So I don't know what you mean, because they haven't chosen to be gay they are born that way.
And this "movement" you refer to, you mean the "movement" for equal rights for all? Because that is what it is. It isn't some plan at blocking people of the knowledge of needing a savior, and it is pretty presumptuous to believe that everyone wants or is looking for, or hasn't already found their savior. And I believe that the Christian community is their own worst enemy, with their holier than thou, judgmental attitude, and that's why people are leaving.
If you are telling me you believe God created homosexuals knowing that they would be abused in this way, your God sounds like a really mean, vindictive God..and NO THANK YOU!!
@Karll First off, I commend you for acknowledging the possibility that you could be "off base" about your beliefs. That takes an open mind that hasn't really been appreciated here yet.
I'd like to respond to this quote of yours: "I am confident whether I was right in my understanding of this issue or completely off base it will be my heart that is under His scrutiny and in that I am confident He will find my motives to be for good and made out of love for others."
This is something I think about a lot too. I worry, though, that to say, "My beliefs could be right, my beliefs could be wrong, but in the end God knows my heart is loving" could be used as an excuse to stop pursuing the right beliefs, the beliefs that are in line with God's nature as revealed in the Bible. What's more, carried to its natural end, such thinking makes it hard to see why our beliefs matter in the first place. Does that make any sense?
For what it is worth, I personally don't see a spirit of judgment in any of your words.
@Karll, wow! You want to voice what you know to be the truth? I think it's what you believe to be the truth. There are too many millions of people who interpret scriptures differently (usually to suit their own prejudices), many of those people stating theirs is the only truth. It boggles the mind!
I disagree with your chosen dogma. It think it is you who has been misled. I think you need to plant a seed of thought in your own mind, and that seed should be that we humans should not try to limit and omnipresent, compassionate and omniscient God.
@Karll do you really not know how offensive this is? What you are saying is that my loving my wife is sinful, in and of itself.
I don't see anything in the comment you have offered here that can be accepted as loving. You are saying that people who are homosexual are (figuratively) spiritually falling off a cliff simply because we love differently. You seem to think that human sexual orientation is something that is chosen and can be changed. I think you, and others who share in your chosen dogma, attempt to limit God's good works to fit your own needs.
My next guess is you'll say that sexual orientation isn't bad; it's "acting on it" that is sinful. I think it is cruel to expect people who are homosexual to live devoid of companionship and intimacy. I think it's the intimacy part that really gets the fundamentalists in an uproar.
Here's what I suggest. Stop thinking about it! If the first thought that comes to you when you either hear the word gay, or when someone comes out to you as gay or lesbian, is their sexual activity then it is you who has the problem. We are complex human beings, just like everyone else.
Do I get up from my lesbian bed every morning, get in my lesbian shower, have my lesbian breakfast, feed my lesbian cats, go to my lesbian job, run lesbian errands after work and cook a delicious lesbian dinner on my lesbian grill?
No, I don't. Sexual orientation, which I think is a misnomer and is more accurately described as affectional orientation, is only a part of who we are. And here's the deal. I would be a lesbian even if I had never been intimate with another woman. It's not about sexual activity; it's about with whom one falls in love.
@kathleen z @Karll @ThomasRoss @Ono They have a choice in how they choose to live their life just like everyone else on earth. Does it suck - yes, would it be excruciatingly hard at times - yes, yes, yes!!! I undertstand what that would mean - clearly God's plan is not for us to know fully. All I know personally is that in the times of biggest trial in my life and in the darkest hours God has found me there and lifted me up. Those are also the times when I have been have drawn closest to Him and felt His love for me most. All I wanted to say in starting these posts is that I worry about this "movement" not individual people but the momentum of this movement blocking out the knowledge of people needing a Savior.
@timqz1 @Karll @Ono Why are you so angry? I am not attacking you. If you feel attacked maybe that conviction is coming from your own heart. I have listened to many stories from people who are gay and I am heartbroken for the trials they have born. Someone can care deeply for a person and not fully agree with every aspect of their life, correct? As for the rest I didn't say anything about homosexuality being evil or wrong just not in God's plan for us. You want to put me into a box of "haters" and judgementals and nothing I can say is going to change that opinion. That's ok. I find it ironic that so many of the people on this forum talk about how christians have persecuted you, and judged you and hated on you but can't see that in your defense of yourselves you have chosen those same tactics. I'm going to stand before God one day and give an accounting for my life - true, and I am confident whether I was right in my understanding of this issue or completely off base it will be my heart that is under His scrutiny and in that I am confident He will find my motives to be for good and made out of love for others.
@Karll @Ono Karil, you really have appointed yourself as God's special mouthpiece, haven't you? I don't know, maybe you think you're acting out of good intentions (and we know what the road to hell is paved with, right?), but you just come across as insufferably arrogant. I think you would benefit tremendously from developing a little humility, like maybe, just maybe, acknowledging that you don't have a lock on all the answers about the human condition. I've said this in earlier comments, but you can find some scrap of scripture that could justify any human horror from racism, misogyny, slavery, war, even genocide. And homophobia. That's why God gave us brains and the ability to reason, so that we don't just parrot scripture but actually use our minds to try to determine what is right and wrong. Have you EVER made an honest attempt to drop the judgement JUST ONCE and talk with gay people, hear their stories, understand their experience, and allow that the situation isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is? Instead, you just swoop down onto this forum and with feigned humility tell us all that you know for a fact that homosexuality is wrong and evil. You say that you're "not judging anyone". Either you're being extremely disingenuous or extremely clueless, because your comments are nothing but judgement.
Ono was right (as usual). When you finally have to give an accounting of your life, I think you're going to be unpleasantly surprised that your actions aren't being seen as blameless as you seem to think they are.
@Karll @ThomasRoss @Ono There isn't a better way to state your position because it's wrong! Your statement about them being deceived implies that they have a choice and they do not. Do you honestly think God created a whole group of people that wasn't part of HIS plan, and that HIS plan was to have created them to be persecuted, judged, bullied, hated, tortured and in such a state of despair that some have taken their own lives?
@ThomasRoss @Karll @Ono HE declined...perfect! love you Thomas!!
@Tiffani @Karll Hi Tiffani, I didn't mean to imply that I necessarily subscribe to the "pray the gay away" thing but I do know that prayer is powerful and God listens when His people cry out to Him. I cant begin to say that I understand God's plan often times I am completely baffled by the way things go. So to try to understand why someone is born a certain way and is asked to carry certain burdens is beyond my abilities. All I know is that I have faith that there is a plan and it is for our good.
@Karll Hey Karll. Sorry to jump in in the middle of your talk, but I'd like to respond to your initial post (the one starting with "I don't know you and I don't know your life story"). What are your thoughts on this man's perspective of homosexuality? Based on what he has to say, doesn't it make sense that homosexuality is more than just a "natural pull" - that it is truly something that cannot be "prayed away", to use your language?
http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/post/52891675848/questions-from-christians-1-doesnt-the-bible-say
@Ono @Karll Ok, I will do that and let you know what I find. If because I do not agree with your philosophy in this matter makes me a pharisee in your eyes then I am truly sorry. However, I have to say in my defense that I have yet to find a way to state my beliefs without someone calling me out as judgemental. I am not judging anyone, I am only stating what I know to be the truth found in God's word. Just because you don't believe something doesn't have any impact on whether or not it is true.
@Karll @Ono I would encourage you to find it, as you offered it up. I do know the Pharisee story, but I find that many Christian's act as the Pharisee and don't recognize it in themselves. It's a blind spot when it comes to their own beliefs about homosexuality.
@Ono @Karll One reference would be His dealings with the Pharisee's but I don't know which exact verse you find that in. I would offer this as an opportunity to seek this out in the Word. Maybe if we are both looking for some reference of this we will both find that answer. I will look into it and I hope you will as well.
@Karll@Ono You are not making me angry, nor are you offending me, so not to worry.
I do wonder though, if you know that homosexuality is not a choice, or lifestyle how you can say they are deceived? What is the deception? If God made a certain portion of the population to have a different orientation than you or me, as well as in the rest of the animal kingdom, how are they deceived. You might ask yourself, how you are being deceived with your beliefs? I hope you will answer these questions for yourself.
Can you please answer my question from earlier: Can you show me in the bible where it says that he didn't walk among those people again, because they wouldn't follow him?
God did change my mind, from your belief to following his words about loving one another and not judging.
@Ono @Karll Ono I believe they are born that way as well, we are all born into the same sinful world, but God came to lift us out of our sin. Please don't be angry, I understand we don't believe the same things and Im sorry to offend I just want the opportunity to voice what I know to be truth. My objective is not to change your mind that is God's job I just want to plant a seed for thought. If one day we stand before God and I find I was mistaken I know that God will look at my heart and see that my intentions were for good.
@ThomasRoss @Karll @Ono Please tell me how I could word any form of disagreement on this issue and not be accused of judging? I am not judging people - I am not casting stones I am not setting myself above anyone else I am not being unkind or hating anyone. I am not trying to pick bible verses to suit my purpose or twist Jesus intentions to fit my argument . I am saying that because it is my deep and reverent belief that homosexuality is not part of God's plan for us I have to, as a person who loves others, tell them when I see them being decieved. That doesn't make me someone who is spewing hatred and judgement. If there is a better way to state this belief that would help it be recieved differently I would would honestly like to know how.
@Karll @Ono Karil, Can you show me in the bible where it says that he didn't walk among those people again, because they wouldn't follow him? I think Thomas addressed the prostitute question. What you appear to fail with that story, is it wasn't so much about a message for her, but a message to those that judge. He was gentle and loving with her, he saved her life. From who? The religious fanatics that judged her. He was very harsh to those who use religion who judged and abused.
There is no sin in being a homosexual. They are born that way. They are doing no harm to you or me. And if they fall in love with someone and choose to spend their lives together, they are no more sinning then you are with your spouse, in consummating your relationship. They can now be legally married in my state, even in my church where we have gay couples that are members. They are accepted not rejected. We don't throw stones at them, or feel they are sinning for being who God made them to be. You may find yourself as one of those who throw the stones and are not hearing what Jesus is trying to convey to you in that story. You made it about the prostitute, when it was those who would cast the judgment stone.
@Karll @Ono Karll, many, many times Christians who are long on judgement and short on externally perceivable love have swooped onto these comments sections to justify their rebellion against Jesus own repeated exhortations not to judge with that tiny piece of Jesus own words, "go and sin no more". What a perversion of the text! What were his words right before that? "Neither do I judge ye." Therefore, "Go and sin no more" cannot be a judgement! Also important to keep in mind, when Jesus said "he who is without sin cast the first stone", that left only one person at the scene who could have picked up that first stone, Jesus himself. He declined.
@Ono I'm quite aware they don't choose it. But if the bible calls it sin, then it's sin. You feel led to march, go for it. But the "Step off the pedestal, judging, "etc..isn't that judging as well?
@Tiffani @Ono That is sad that you believe that you as a Christian you have a hard time believing it to be true, not as a judgment on you though, but about a reflection on the Christian churches. Mine is part of a mainstream denomination; however, we are different than many in our denomination. So that wouldn't help you. You will most likely have to do some church hopping yourself. Usually one sermon is all that is necessary to hear the hearts of a particular church. We are out there in a few different denominations.
Oh and your comment about balance with doctrine, we take it seriously, but we set aside that which harms others. Such as killing witches, murdering disobedient children, or that homosexuality is an abomination. We are in the uplifting of the spirit with hope and love in our walk with Jesus, and not in the put-down-or-point-fingers-business. All are welcome and accepted just as they are.
@Ono Well, like I said mostly it's out of plain curiosity. I think someone said earlier that your church sounds too good to be true; I think so too! But if it's not, maybe there are others around where people can feel accepted with all their baggage and messiness and not feel judged. I personally would love to find a church like that (although I would certainly be looking for more of a balance with taking doctrine seriously). Knowing the denomination would be a start, at least.
@Tiffani @Ono Why do you ask?
@Ono I'm just curious - is your church affiliated with a particular denomination?
@mandymullins82 @timqz1 @Tiffani I understand completely. Unfortunately, Mandy, our voices are not heard often enough. I am working on it though. It took me a long time before I could go back to church. I would try a new church and often became nauseated with the darkness of the agitating, finger-pointing messages from the pulpit. When I found this church that believes in the message of love and hope that Jesus gave us, as the most important part of our walk with God, it was a refreshing change.
@timqz1 @Tiffani Thanks for speaking out. We all need to hear these stories, because it helps people like me understand what is happening. I've been speaking out for many years about this, and as you know a lot has changed in the last few decades. The more people know, the more people will step up to the plate and do something to help bring about change.
Your story helps so many others, it helps me when I get so discouraged by the heartlessness of others, that I don't think anything will ever change. But you reminded me how much has changed already. Thank you for the work you do and that you are using your experience to help others who are going through the same. I think that sometimes our pain and suffering turns into something that we can use to help others.
@mandymullins82 @timqz1 @Tiffani Mandy, I feel the same way, except I'm lucky enough to have a family that feels the same way I do, so I would like to extend an invitation to be part of my liberal, (a little crazy at times) family!!
@timqz1
Of course heterosexuality can be a sin! ANYTHING can lead to sin, that is the perfectly insidious nature of sin... it creeps into our lives without us realising.
I don't walk around advertising that I think it is against God's will for two men to have sex, I don't - I believe it based on my understanding of the bible - but I DON'T treat anyone differently if they happen to be gay or bi or undecided or something else!?!
People go against God's will all day everyday - even I do a lot... I don't hate on people because of that.
Why is it so hard to imagine that someone can believe something and still behave in a manner of love - do you understand love? Love means that regardless of everything and anything I still put you first, I don't try to hurt you, I care, I love you for you NOT for what you do, how you do it, what you say or how you say it, I love through choice and I make an effort to make the choice to love whoever I come across...
And yes, like I said mote speck etc... here's what I meant: Matthew 7:4 -Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
@Snooterpoot I have never oppressed anyone or any group - I have been judgemental of many people in the past, but as I walk closer with Jesus I find it happens less and less.
I will not plead anything but the blood of Jesus to God because I cannot save wreched self with any of the deeds I have or haven't done, no more than you or anyone else can.
Jesus died for our sins and only accepting His truth will save us. We are saved by faith, not works.
@timqz1 Thank you for sharing your testimony! My heart truly goes out to you. I know I've said this before - and I know my words don't matter as much as they would coming from those who have wronged you - but as your words clearly show, it can never be said enough: I'm deeply sorry for the hatred you've experienced in the name of Christ. And I'm so happy that you have found a degree of healing.
I just wanted to share an interview with you. Just to give you fair background, this man does believe homosexuality is a sin, but I hope you'll listen to him anyway, because I think you'd be hard-pressed to find words more compassionate, understanding, and reflective of Christian love, even though they are spoken by a man whose position you believe is harmful.
And as a side note - he's got a sweet twist on the saying "love the sinner, hate the sin" that I think you will appreciate.
Thanks again for encouraging me to engage with you all. I'm learning a lot from you! Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWYtkn_8D-g
@timqz1@Tiffani"The sad thing is that I really do love Jesus's message. And I love Jesus and all that he represents. But these "Christians" have so poisoned the well for me, that I just can't go back to the Christian church." This is exactly me...I love Jesus, but I can't go back to church...I just can't. Ono's church sounds too good to be true hehe.
I've become quite liberal myself, and if my family knew just how liberal I am now, a few of them would disown me. This is why I can't tell them and have to sit tight lipped when they bash on the people I love :'(. Sometimes I just want to scream at them.
@kathleen z @timqz1 @Tiffani Thanks, Kathleen. Your son is one very lucky guy to have a parent like you.
@Tiffani @timqz1
"certainty leaves no room for faith"
Or, as the Zen Buddhists say, "Not knowing is most intimate."
@timqz1 @Tiffani Tim, I love what you said. You expressed with such heart breaking emotion the importance of this fight. Please know you don't have to call yourself a Christian to believe Christ LOVES you, and he does!!
All my sons friends call me mama z, because I love and have been a mom to all of them, just because they are all beautiful children (well, they are in their 30's now, but kids to me) please feel free to call me mama z too. Love you Tim for the beautiful child you are!
@Vegemum @kathleen z I'm not sure how to respond to something this stupid. I never "insisted" that we are not sinners...I've insisted that homosexuality is NOT a sin. I don't think you've really read anything I've written or you would know that I love Christ with my heart and soul and it disgusts me when people come here and use his name to be hurtful, judgmental and condemn a whole group of his children.
@kathleen z - we are all sinners, that is why Jesus dies on the cross to save us, if you insist we are not sinners then Jesus died in vain, I cannot accept that and choose to believe what I believe.
@Tiffani @timqz1 Well, as long as we're sharing our personal stories, my "passion" comes from a lifetime of being on the receiving end of condemnation and contempt masked as "good Christian concern for my soul". What made all this particularly galling was that people were shredding me up inside to the point where suicide (many, many years ago) seemed like a viable option but were masking their attacks as "Christian" love. It was worse than hypocrisy. At least a hypocrite has enough self-awareness to know that his actions are wrong and that he has to pretend to be something that he isn't. It was (and is) the smugness of these "good Christians" that was (and is) so infuriating. They never even tried to listen to my story, to learn from me from my experiences, to acknowledge my own humanity and my own struggle.
It's been a long, hard journey towards healing, and I can't truthfully say that the healing has been complete. But I have self-respect and self-love now, and I consider myself overall to be a happy man with some wonderful, loving people in my life. But I still struggle with a lot of anger over what was done to me and what is currently being done to other (like me once) impressionable, confused and scared young gays and lesbians. And every time I read or hear about some young gay person killing themselves because of the scorn and shame heaped on them by "Christians", it breaks my heart. And feeds my rage.
This is my current struggle: not to sink into permanent bitterness. I think that by and large I've succeeded, but it's a daily fight. But at the same time, I will NOT tolerate listening to the same "Christian" claptrap about how their scorn and hate is really nothing but concern and love (Karil in this forum is the current example of this).
The sad thing is that I really do love Jesus's message. And I love Jesus and all that he represents. But these "Christians" have so poisoned the well for me, that I just can't go back to the Christian church. I was raised in a Christian household and exposed to Christ's teachings, so I can claim some familiarity with the tenets of Christianity. I also have virtually no interaction with my biological family because they are too uncomfortable with my gayness (and, to be frank, with my liberal politics). My "family" nowadays is made up by my friends and loved ones.
This forum has given me the opportunity to find a voice and share my story. It has also let me confront some of those "Christians" who spread hatred in the name of love, and to call them on it. That's been very healing. Any harshness I've directed towards you in my comments, Tiffani, comes from this. And, again, I'm very moved to see how you have in fact listened to us and have shared that you too are struggling and evolving. That is so much better than the glib, air-tight complacency so frequently demonstrated by "Christians" in this forum who have just come in order to gay-bash in the name of Christ.
@timqz1 Thank you so, so much. I'm truly taken aback; I didn't expect to receive any positive response to that comment.
I am (quite slowly) learning to see the value of doubt, because certainty leaves no room for faith. It's frustrating to not have an answer for every question, but it's also liberating.
I think, maybe, the biggest reason we've bumped heads is because we're both so passionate about our beliefs, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as we can remember that we are each real people, much more than words on a screen.
@Ono @Tiffani Ono, I just read your essay. It was so moving, so beautifully written. One of the best things about participating in this forum is that it's given me the opportunity to interact with some incredibly beautiful people. Like you. Thanks.
@Tiffani @Ono Tiffani, I know we've bumped heads together in the past, but I'm very moved by your latest comment. Sometimes pain and doubt can be good things. They're an acknowledgement that we don't have all the answers and that the world is not black and white but is far more complex and nuanced than we normally give it credit for. And they certainly are an improvement over smug complacency.
I have a lot of respect for you taking on this struggle, when it would have been so much easier for you to just accept things without question. There's some real depth of character shown there.
I know you've felt picked on here in this forum, and yet you keep coming back. I have a lot of respect for that too. There are some really, really good people participating in this forum. This is a good place to hang out. I'm glad you're part of this community.
@Ono That's not what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear. Dogma, or capital "T" Truth, weaves in and out of Christianity in such a way that I believe the two are inseparable. Here is a quote from a favorite blogger of mine that sums it up much better than I could:
"In the Bible, Truth and Love are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other. God's Truth is all about God's Love for us and the Love we ought to have for one another. We are being untrue to that Truth if we treat people unlovingly. And we are missing out on the full extent of that Love if we try to divorce it from Ultimate Truth."
I fear at this point we must agree to disagree about the harmfulness of the belief. My experiences and the testimonies I have heard tell me one thing, and yours have told you another.
http://evolequals.com/2013/06/08/thank-you-for-changing-my-life/
Hmm. The link worked for me, but perhaps your browser doesn't like it if it goes down to another line. You might have to highlight the whole url, copy it and then paste it into the address bar.
Are you saying that those who would lose their faith are following dogma and not Christ? That most likely is a huge problem!
Here is where I disagree. The beliefs are harmful. Ask any gay person, how it harms and listen to what they have to say. Because the belief cuts them to their very core. I've tried pointing this out to you many times, it is no different then the beliefs that enslaved people, or killed people. The belief is harmful, it hurts people. It is a religion that is steeped in hatred and fear and control of others. It is not brewed by God's love for his children.
I will not mince my words to encourage the harm to other children of God. It took people standing up in the past to stop the abuse of others, and as a Christian, I must take a stand also and keep calling out the prejudice that is harming a group of people, some who are very near and dear to me, and are doing nothing to harm you or me or any other Christian because of who they love. I wish that every Christian who does this could feel the pain that they so freely inflict on others.
@Ono Thank you, Ono, for understanding. I just wish you could extend the same kind and thoughtful words to those Christians who do believe homosexuality is a sin, and realize that their journey is different from yours, and their beliefs in and of themselves (apart from their words, actions, and attitudes) are not harmful. Not everyone requires "freedom from religious dogma" to find Christ. In fact, for me and many others, take away dogma and you take away our very faith.
I'd love to read your story, but the link seems to be broken.
@Tiffani@OnoTiffani, I don't think you are dishonest, I was just trying to say that it could be perceived that way.
Believe me I have been where you are, although gays never came under my radar, I even had one for a roommate when I was in college. Some how I didn't get that memo. I did a little story about how I came to understand what they were going through in this essay: http://evolequals.com/2013/06/08/thank-you-for-changing-my-life/.
At some point in my life I rejected Christianity, because I saw so much horrible behavior from those who professed Christ. I watched the bible being used as a weapon against people, instead of a comfort for people. Years later, I realized it wasn't God that was the problem, it was his followers. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home. It took me awhile to find a church that uplifted the spirit, instead of clobbering it. The message there is about hope, and love and understanding, not fear and damnation, or keeping me at a constant state of self-loathing. My new church wasn't in the shame and blame game. I also came to understand what God meant when he said, by their fruits you will know them.
I too was terrified of changing my thinking, but I tell you facing that fear was the best thing I ever did in my life. I finally found what Jesus meant in his commandments to love one another and not judge. It means letting go of that which keeps us broken. Am I perfect at it? No, but I found that with God I can give up the fear and bask in his loving embrace. I gave up the lies of religious dogma and the fear melted.
So I do understand your fear, but I believe that as you have pointed out, God is full of grace. He can handle you questioning that which has been taught you. I will pray with you that your walk will bring you closer to what you seek. And thank you for sharing yourself, it touched my heart.
I hope you read my essay, as you might get a little more understanding about who I am, and why I am so compassionate about this.
@Tiffani @DavidStevens "gay love is just as meaningful and pleasing to God as straight love" I couldn't agree more.
Simple is good, I like simple. When we as teeny tiny little humans are trying to contemplate the mind of God, it's probably best that we keep it simple. Thank you for your open mind.
@DavidStevens I'm glad someone can relate, and especially with such moving words.
I agree that you can't nail God down; but at the same time, I do know that I can look at love, and say "That is God" and look at sin and say "That isn't God." The tricky part, the mysterious part, and the part where we must admit our frailty and inability to know it all, comes with defining "sin" and "love". The Bible helps a lot with that, but you're right, it's not the be-all, end-all.
That may seem very simplified, but it is the core of my uncertainty about homosexuality, because if I concede that being gay is an orientation (which I have), and if gay people can love each other just as selflessly as straight people can, then it must also follow that gay love is just as meaningful and pleasing to God as straight love. Any way you slice it, I can't see how that argument is inconsistent with the Bible (which I do believe is inspired by God, even if it was written by fallible humans).
@DavidStevens @Tiffani @Ono thank you David.....what I have been trying to get across for awhile now. But in a few sentences you said IT ALL...love, love, love "YOU CAN'T NAIL HIM DOWN". That's brilliant!!
@Tiffani @Ono
Hey Tiffani,
I remember my own process of letting go of the Bible's infallibility. I remember a particular moment (I was about 18, and had been in the process for awhile at that point) when I had a feeling as if I had just jumped off of a cliff; I was in spiritual freefall.
I was terrified. I was exhilarated. I never hit the ground, God caught me. His Love enveloped me. I have never walked alone, and I haven't needed the Book.
As frail humans, we are too often looking for something DEFINITE to cling to, hence fundamentalism in all of its many forms.
The tricky thing about God is that YOU CAN'T NAIL HIM DOWN. You can't point at one thing and say, "That is God," then point at something else and say, "That isn't God."
Questioning the Bible isn't the same as questioning God. As powerful as the Book is, God is more powerful still.
@OnoI wasn't being dishonest. I kept my beliefs to myself because I didn't want the focus of the conversation to shift. I can share them if you like, because they aren't what you think (again, you really are misjudging me). The truth is that I don't know. I've been thinking, praying, and wrestling with it for a while now. Maybe, if I'm truly honest with myself, I already know the answer, and it's just fear that is holding me back.
I share this in hopes to help you understand how huge a deal it is for someone like me to change their position on homosexuality, and how much you're asking when you require that of us. Accepting the fallibility of the Bible's teachings may not seem like a big deal to you, but from my perspective, doing so feels a lot like taking the very ground out from under me, the very foundation I've ALWAYS seen as firm and unshakable. I'm getting there, but I'm just not ready to face the unknown yet, because frankly, the unknown is terrifying.
Sorry this got so personal, I just wanted to share a little perspective to help you see why dogma means so much to Christians, and why we can be so unyielding when it comes to change.
As far as the rest of what you had to say, I read it - very carefully - and thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view to me so thoroughly. I truly am taking your words to heart.
@Ono @Tiffani Ono, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your support over the past couple of years in this forum. Your comments are always spot on and full of fierce compassion. I've really enjoyed reading the comments you make..
@Tiffani@Ono I apologize too as I am trying to convey something here and not doing it well and have made you angry.
Since you are telling me that what I am perceiving is wrong, I invite you to help me understand what you believe, and I hope that you can try to look at the other side of the coin. As Tim keeps pointing out that being on the receiving end of the attitudes and treatments we Christians heap upon our fellow human beings is hurtful.
When you wrote you want to build a bridge, I pointed out that the bridge can't be spanned when stuff is thrown at them that tears their side down. Since we are in the group that has been oppressing them for eons, we are the ones that need to be building the bridge to them, mending the wrongs and rebuilding trust.
It's not homosexuals who need to change, it is us, Christian's attitudes that must change.
@Tiffani
Tiffani, It is the belief that is why LGBT's have been treated as pariah's, bullied, scorned, murdered, kept from the bedside of a dying loved one, made homeless, lost their jobs, kicked out of their families, and there are more, but what I listed is enough, the belief is what makes the attitude. Or why young people commit suicide from the despair they feel, because of OUR attitudes. This is the fruit of our beliefs.
At one time, slavery was thought to be ok and bible sanctioned. Mainstream Christian's of the day had slaves and justified it with the bible. Was that belief ok for those who owned the slaves? The bible says kill witches, and at one time that's what Christians did for a few too many centuries. Was that bible-sanctioned belief ok? Should a slave or the men and women killed by those who "believed" be responsible for building bridges to those who oppress. Interracial couples were scorned (some places it was unlawful for them to marry who they love) for bridging the gaps between races and marrying, all were bible-justified beliefs.
The belief in question here, cuts to the very core of their being. I've heard so many stories over the years of the oppression, the hurt, the murder of their souls, that we have heaped upon them.
My church, one of many in many denominations, has recognized that our beliefs should be held accountable for what it does to others. We accept that homosexuality is not a "lifestyle" but an orientation that God has made. It may even be a test for us to see how we treat others who are different than ourselves.
Acceptance is where the healing will happen. Holding onto beliefs from a dogma that was built to oppress others won't bring healing or bridge the gap. The responsibility rests on our shoulders, not theirs. Can anyone really fault them for running away from Christians who's message is why they are treated so badly? I can't.
Our attitudes have made it dangerous for them and we are the ones responsible. No, I don't believe it is up to them to be friends with those whose beliefs keep them in a world that has disdain for them. I can't blame them for that. The finger pointing should always be pointed at us, not them.
If a Christian wants to follow Jesus commandments to love one another, than perhaps it is time for all of us to question the dogma we have been taught. It's ok to question it, because that is what has helped change beliefs that slavery was ok, or killing witches, or stopping the crusades. All who used their belief that God sanctioned their actions. All of it came from man's dogma, this is just another in a long line of beliefs we need to question and pray about and change ourselves. This may very well be the biggest test for us, because the test calls for us to change so that we become more Christ-like.
As to why you don’t share what you believe (although I believe you have revealed it) is perplexing. You ask for some to meet halfway, yet cloak yourself. I don’t believe it helps build a bridge, and may come across as dishonest, wishy-washy, or that you are ashamed of what you believe.
@DebbieTeashon Thank you for being so kind and thoughtful. I have been trying to understand the other side of the coin (honestly, I'm bending over backwards trying to understand, even if my words don't seem to reflect that). As I've said before, I agree that many LGBTs are treated badly by the Church, and our attitudes need to change.
As far as what I believe, I haven't stated it explicitly, because I truly think that my beliefs regarding homosexuality are irrelevant to the point I am making. The point I am trying to make is this: it's our attitudes, our words, and our actions that build bridges and demonstrate how much we value others. Not our beliefs. A Christian's belief that homosexuality is a sin does NOT automatically make them an ignorant hater who oppresses others, or make them incapable of loving gays. I'll never believe that.
When I speak of building brides and compromising, I'm not calling for gays to change ANYTHING about their lifestyle or their beliefs. I'm just asking them to do what you just asked me to do: try to understand the other side of the coin - try to understand that Christians' beliefs about homosexuality come from a place of a genuine desire to follow God's Word, and not from hatred or bigotry.
@Vegemum @Ono Vegemum: Dawni's judgement (and yours): Homosexuality is wrong and sinful, and so are homosexuals. My judgement: Um, I think you're mistaken.
As far as "judgements" go, I think Dawni's (and yours) is the one that cuts deepest and is most hurtful.
BTW, when some "Christian" says, "I'm not judging you for your sin of homosexuality because I'm a sinner too", that is so offensive. Yes, I'm a "sinner" (if you want to use that word), but my sins do NOT include my sexuality just as much as your sins don't include your (I assume) heterosexuality.
BTW #2, I think you meant "beam" when your wrote "mote".
@Ono I apologize for my comment above. Not for what I said, but for the way I said it. I posted it as an impulsive, angry response to being so harshly misjudged.
For what it is worth, I love JCML's comment, just as much as Dawni's, and I "liked" it just for you.
@Vegemum I have to say that I don't see any love in what you have written here. What I do see here is an opinion based on nothing more than superstition and indoctrination.
I think that those of you who proclaim the Bible to be "God's Word" are failing to use the gift of intelligence that comes from God. It's yet another example of a self-identified Christian hiding behind a shield of their chosen religious dogma while condemning people of whom you disapprove as sinners for an innate human trait.
So, I'll ask you to consider this. When you are called to account for your life on this planet what will you say when God asks you why you judged and oppressed his children who are homosexual?
@Tiffani @Ono Well than wouldn't you say the same goes for the gay community? You don't know the first thing about their fruit! You want to label them "sinners" because of a few passages in a book that has been rewritten, interpreted, mistranslated by men, for thousands of years. The word "homosexual" was not even used in any English Christian bible until 1946. Does it make any sense to any of you that God would create (since they are born gay) a whole group of his children so that another whole group of his children could hate on them? JUST STOP!! Christ IS NOT OK with you hating on anyone by assuming you know better than what he has created and calling them sinners. "Lets eat, Grandma"...is a whole lot different than "Lets eat Grandma"...one comma changed the whole meaning of that short little sentence, so how can you be so sure with hundreds of hands stirring the pot rewriting a book thousands of years old, with parts included, parts missing, parts later found, parts still hidden, that things are not "OFF" to say the least, you can't. Because you can go into any book store and pick up any number of bibles and they will have different wordings for the same passages.
@Ono @timqxz1 - both of you are being just as judgemental and harsh towards Dawni as you claim she is towards homosexuality or her beliefs. I am pretty sure the bible says something about removing your mote before you remove anothers speck???
And for the record I agree with Dawni that God's Word declares homosexuality as a sin. I also agree that my sin is no less than the next person's gay or otherwise.
We are all saved by His LOVE, His grace, His sacrifice and that is regardless of whether or not we believe homosexuality to be a choice, a sin or perfectly okay - however, the only time the truth on this matter will be revealed is when Jesus returns, our specualtion will cause nothing but arguments and hurt.
@Tiffani I would invite you to scroll down a few messages and read JustCallMeLouise. That's what Christ-like looks like. Why aren't you hitting the like button on her post? Can you see the difference between hers and Dawni's? The difference is, there is no judgment in JCML's words.
@Tiffani I watch what you support by hitting the like buttons. I read your words. I have yet to see you support, I mean really support what a gay person has to say. You are defensive and choose your words carefully, but your message is still the same. That I believe is your fruit. I'm sorry you hurt because I call out what I see. But you seem to have a blind side for gays.
I've been reading your words, I know what you are saying, and I see what you support, and I'm trying to tell you that you are hurting people. If you don't wish your fruits to be seen as rotten, change what you are producing.
This isn't about you, this about what is being done to gays, by Christians. I am a Christian myself, and I believe we have a lot of 'splainin to do with how we treat gays. Words and attitudes are powerful weapons.
@Ono It is very, very hurtful to me that you would label me as prejudiced when you don't know a thing about who I am, the scope of my beliefs, or how I treat others.
The fruit that is falling from my trees? Again, you don't know the first thing about my fruit. God does, and those who are my close friends and family do. What's more, it's not your place to tell me about my fruit; it's God's.
And for the record, I NEVER said I believe homosexuality is sinful. This is what happens when you make assumptions based on nothing more than the fact that I claim the Bible is authoritative, and that I am willing to rise to the defense of Christians who do believe homosexuality is a sin.
Think before you type such hurtful things, please.
Dawni, I've been fighting the good fight for gays for over two decades. Times are changing, Christians are waking up to their prejudices and rejecting the dogma that man has taught them. You may not want to be standing in front of Jesus the day he asks why you bore the fruit of prejudice towards his children. Same for you Tiffani who spouts that you are in support of gays, then proceeds to talk about their sin of who they love.
Please pray about this, if you sincerely want to love your fellow human beings. Because the fruit that is falling from your trees does not resemble love to my gay friends. Your fruit makes them turn away, because they can smell what's lurking behind the words.
It really is funny how many Christians talk about all the gay friends they have. I can remember that line being used by white people. Oh I have many black friends. But I don't believe they should go to the same school as my kids. Sounds so familiar to what you are saying. There's always some little catch that keeps you on your pedestal above another. Be careful, it may wind up knocked out from under you. Your fall may be rough.
We can always find excuses, but if you want to really be loving, stop the excuses and start being Christ-like.
@Dawni @Ono I've just got to echo what Ono wrote. As she so correctly pointed out, Bible scripture has been used to justify slavery, racism, misogyny, war, even genocide, so be careful about quoting Bible scripture to justify your prejudices against gays. God gave humans intelligence and the ability to reason. To deny these gifts is to deny God. If you can't justify your opinion that homosexuality is a sin except by slinging out a couple of misinterpreted Bible quotes, then you're not using your God-given intelligence. If, for the moment you can put aside the six "clobber verses" in the Bible, please explain to me why homosexuality is a sin. Especially since you've acknowledged that sexuality, gay or straight, isn't a choice. Who is hurt by two people entering into a loving, same-sex relationship?
To condemn a group of people for a characteristic that they didn't choose and can't change is just as wrong as condemning a person for their race or gender. You are not treating your "gay friends" with any shred of love or respect if you see them as "sinners" for being gay.
Ironically, nowadays Christian homophobia is hurting the Christian church more than it is hurting gays. More and more young people are leaving the church is droves because they are turned off by what they perceive as the Christian church's intolerance and rigidity. Those who condemn homosexuality are finding themselves on the wrong side of history and are becoming increasingly irrelevant.
Finally, in regards to judgement, everyone makes judgements all the time. That's how we all steer ourselves through our lives. Judging someone is only bad when it's based on prejudice rather than reason.