I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.

BeckyDobbinsWilder "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU" unless you're a masochist, then all bets are off. :)

StefAllegaert It is definitely a power over. Thank you for your words, it is very tiring sometimes to keep on talking to them, but everytime we speak up, we are that much closer to stopping the bullying and hatred. I know it will never be totally stamped out, but at least we can confine it to the fringes.

Ono I just tried to give it another intake....i have been talking to rocks so long with facts and figures and the, started to,realise this makes no sense because one starts to do what they do.. Take fragments of texts as a weapon against other fragments of texts... We need to realise that every word spoken in the name of.. Is an interpretation...

StefAllegaert Now THAT is a post from someone I beleive IS a true expert! Thanks for that StefAllegaert! Your English was great...

StefAllegaert Stef- you said it quite well. I don't think your English/grammer skills took one bit away from your post.

Congratulations on your having found the love of your life. I wish you many happy years together. I am a gay 52 year old man and a Christian. I lost my love in 1994 to AIDS. He was a wonderful man and I miss him so. Garry

southernboy Tnx Garry, I am sorry to hear about your loss, 1year ago or 18yeas ago.. The pain still is the same... Cherrish the memories and know that what is and was between you and him can never be wrong.by thinking of him you honor his life and your love... Good on you! LOL... Meaning LOTS OF LOVE !!!!! Tnx for sharing.... By doing this we take the emphasis away from the bullies straight to the love for others around it and doing that their messages gets watered down.. As it should.... But having said that.. I will never water down my beliefs... I am and will be intolerant to the intolerants... In fact i have to do this if i respect their strong feelings i guess. Respect for you , garry

StefAllegaertsouthernboy Thank you both for reminding people that we are more than just people with opinions on an issue as many of the anti-gay posters are. We are people with cherished lives that deserve greater respect than "I happen to believe that homosexuality (in other words, your life) is a sin".

I am a 54 year old single dad raising two nine year old sons, adopted from fostercare. My ex partner is barely in the picture having gotten involved with prescription drugs and alcohol. My sons and I are a family and me being gay is part of that family's identity. I don't feel the need to apologize for it morally, emotionally or spiritually and neither should my kids.

Rob W southernboy Rob... I am sure u are a great dad.. Respect.. And never apologize for what u are, christian or not.... The whole blog is just about this... We all are people that can love and live without hurting anyone... And we are certainly not a threath to the institution of marriage... Me and erik got married by law... Not a legal construction giving gay partners same rights as heterosexuals, but a real legal marriage, in 2003, being one of the first couples in the world to be able to do this.... And believe me, i have sent alot of mails to members of óur congress to make sure the law got passed in parliament and published in time.... Guess what... The marriage here has not changed... So never never give in'. We are here and we are part of society as valuable members... We have to be proud and not to apologize

StefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Congratulations StefAllegaert, and great respect in return. Thank you for leading the way -- I am embarrassed how backwards America is regarding gay relationships and I have fought my whole adult life to try and change that here.

Several years ago the city of San Francisco made a great stir by allowing gay couples to marry. It only lasted for a few weeks before shutting down, but on Valentines day that year, my then partner (the one I adopted the boys with) and I married with our sons in tow. Weeks later the state dissolved the marriage, but we were on the 6 o clock news with our boys in the local area. I was proud to stand for something very important for gay families. Sadly, our marriage did not last... but I am extremely happy for you and that yours has... sincere and wonderful blessings on you!!

Rob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy I live in San Francisco too (hence "SFClint"). It's good to have a fellow commenter in my back yard. :-) After reading some of the more hateful posts here, it reminds me of how nice it is to live in this liberal oasis.

SFClintRob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Wow! Clint, I've missed these hateful posts. I've been too zeroed in on Christian, I guess. Could you please name the particular posters you refer to? I feel the need, nay the DUTY, to call these people out. In postings about an article with the basic tenant that we all need to love those who are different, to discontinue bullying those people, it is downright reprehensible to espouse such hatred. They cannot be allowed to do so without rebuttal. And, a reminder that they are no better than any other person on Earth. To believe they are better, and to act as though they are better, is an opinion of which they need to be disabused, IMMEDIATELY.

SFClintStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy I am about an hour and a half south of you Clint... but you are correct, it is a bit of an oasis... my county voted AGAINST Prop 8 95% to 5%

Marc048Rob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy "Christian" was the most recent. I've been following (and participating) in this comment thread almost from the beginning. Some of the older posts make Christian look like the soul of enlightenment. A few were extremely hateful and abusive, and if you want to, just follow the threads back far enough and you'll find them. But they're ancient history now. The people who posted have long since fled the field, and there's no point rehashing them. I doubt that the posters are even following this chain anymore.

SFClintRob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Okay, that's cool, I don't need to dredge up old crap. I didn't know they were so old. But, really, Christian the "Soul of Enlightenment"??? Holy Crap. Those must have been reeeeaaaalllllyyyyy nasty posts. I am SO glad I didn't see those. You're also right about them probably not following this thread anymore. That kind usually is a "hit & run" kind of creep -- you know, make nasty comments, a few particularly evil responses, then run away. Usually don't have the stones to stand up to criticism -- much too weak-natured to handle the truth which would get thrown at them. Anyway, g'nite. I have to go lay down -- the thought of Christian as the S of E gives me the vapors. : )

SFClintRob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Ha ha! Don't you know it!! Ewwwwwww.

SFClintMarc048StefAllegaertRobsouthernboy One of the earlier one's was either "Christian" under another name (he denied that it was) or a poster who claimed a different religious affiliation but had the exact same "expert" bravado, and also claimed to read the New Testament in Hebrew. His writing pattern was identical and the profile picture looked like they could be the same person.

Rob WMarc048StefAllegaertRobsouthernboy "Christian" was pompous and arrogant (though I suspect that underneath the arrogance was tremendous insecurity) but he wasn't really all that hateful or abusive. I've been on other Christian comment threads where I was pretty much the only pro-gay voice. Whether what prompted me was the naive view that I could reason with those people or I was motivated by simple masochism, the responses I received were often extraordinarily hateful and vicious, all coming from people who described themselves as "Christian". It soon became clear that those people loved their hatred too much to give it up for logic or reason, and so I made a rapid retreat. The beauty with this current thread is that the pro-gay posters predominate, and when some homophobic jerk wanders onto the scene, he's usually pretty much on his own.

I think if you follow the conversations, they are not focused on making a point that "Christians are awful", they are speaking to points or opinions made here by those who claim to speak for "Christianity" justifying their own anti-gay stance. As a Christian, I believe those points should be discussed and ignorance behind them dispelled. Those points do dramatic harm to many people, particularly young people who are bullied and those like the young man Dan describes in the article. Also, in my opinion, those opinions do harm to Christianity itself and gut it of its true Purpose and value.

I disagree with your world view of "Everyone" being "awful" and self-righteous. If that is the case, your call to fight selfishness is pretty hollow since, if you were correct, everyone just naturally is prejudiced. To follow your analogy, it would be like asking them not to breathe.

I have known many, many selfless people. I have also seen people get more information around their prejudices and walk away from old beliefs. Anger is not the only motivation for bigotry... sometimes it is the fear that they are gay themselves...sometimes it is a fear that if they question that precept that their religion has mandated that they will have a crisis of faith over other things they were told. What often dispels bigotry is information, although absorbing that information is not necessarily quick or easy.

I get your intention for everyone to just love everyone else (although you don't seem to believe it is in their nature to do so). And I think that is a great objective. There is a line however, when to "love" the other person it means accepting lies, distortions or a sense of humiliation they are insisting that you need to identify as your own existence.

Rob W "It's been said many times on here that loving someone is different from loving what they do"...Yes, too many times, in fact. It sounds painfully close to the old "love the sinner, hate the sin" bromide that those oh so pious homophobic Christians love to quote, a line that sets my teeth on edge. This is not to imply that I think that's what you meant, SS; in fact, I'm sure it wasn't. But it's just that when I see a sentiment like that expressed, I feel myself getting defensive all over again. But that's just me.

SS: I hope you will read the whole set of comments, posted between "Christian" (not Christians in general, but a poster who chose to label himself -- him, from his picture -- "Christian") and a number of others who took umbrage with "Christian's" statements. For myself, my argument with Christian was basically as yours. The article was about Love and how we treat others who are different. Christian chose to corrupt the article and change it to a "definition" of Christianity, and then proceeded to make some really specious charges. Rob W., SFClint, Ono, Evan, Tom, and several others whose monikers I forgot at the moment, chose to enter into a "discussion" (as Christian called them) about his charges, as well as his continually falling back on his being an "Expert" and basically using that as a means of claiming he was right and everybody else was wrong. These were not discussions, because a discussion involves both sides making statements of beliefs, hopefully adding to the knowledge of the opposing side. These were one-sided rants by Christian, with no intent from him to learn anything, but to force each every other person who responded to him, to believe in his superiority of knowledge because he is an "Expert," and deserves to be considered an expert. He challenged everybody to "prove" their opinions, but would only rely on his "Expertise" to defend his own bigotry -- including the old chestnut, "I have many gay friends, but . . ." Overall, your comment shows you did indeed understand the intent of the article. Read all these comments with Christian, and I think you will find that not only did Rob W., SFClint, Ono, Evan, Tom, Myself and others understand the intent of the article, we were attempting to show Christian how he seems to have missed the intent entirely, and then deliberately changed it to some idea for which he could/would only claim Expert Status and therefor was correct in his bigotry. As I said elsewhere, he (Christian) was very good, though, at whining and crying about being a martyr and being abused. Peace and Love, SS.

You raise an interesting point, SS. But just to clarify things, this most recent chain of comments was not pointing fingers at some generic group, i.e.,saying "Christians are bad" (especially since it seems that most of the commentators identify themselves as Christians). It was in response to one person misquoting Christian scripture to engage in gay bashing. Obviously this aroused some heated emotions. The broader question would be "What would be the most skillful response?" In all honesty, I don't know. When confronted with hateful lies, I believe that sometimes "turning the other cheek" is not the best response, and that a strong push back, confronting the hate and calling it for what it is, is more appropriate. Especially when the hate is presented as "Christian love" But I can also see that responding to hate with hate has problems too. Maybe, just maybe, "Christian" will be a little more reluctant to engage in queer bashing the next time around, considering the responses he encountered. Who knows? I know that what he said made me angry, since I've been on the receiving end of this kind of bigotry for over 40 years, and have experienced first hand the hurtfulness of it. I also read about gay teenagers killing themselves because of similar hateful messages and it breaks my heart. But you're right Someone saying the hateful things that "Christian" said must be coming from a deeply unhappy place. Do we pile up on him or do we try to address his pain? And if the latter, then what's the best way for doing that, while still letting it be known that such bigotry is unacceptable? It's a difficult question and I don't have an easy answer.

SS, I know in the past I had a difficult time thinking all Christians were the same. I grew up in a fundamentalist family, and carried a lot of access baggage from it. I left the religion, because I couldn't stomach the hatred. How I was able to see what was happening and get out, I don't know, my siblings are still steeped in the hatred. My brother the minister looked me straight in the eye and told me he didn't want health care for all because he didn't believe we should pay for care of gays with aids. I have a lifetime of them speaking about God's love out of one side of their mouths and see no compassion or love in their actions.

I've come to realize that not all Christians are this way. I've come back to it and belong to a church that actively teaches and does the work of love. I may not always speak in the correct way, but I am a work in progress. However, I do take a stand against the bullies; and can be quite outspoken about it. It may come across that I am bashing Christians, but my intent is to fight for my LGBT brothers and sisters who have been harmed by the teachings of most Christians. More Christians are waking up and turning away from the old ways as they realize that it is chock full of hate. If we don't speak out against it, it won't change. I've been actively speaking out against it for almost 2 decades and a lot of changes have happened. It doesn't help to be silent about it, nothing changes.

I do find it interesting that you come in here and stick up for those who are trying to justify their prejudices, as if they are the ones who are the victims in this particular forum.

Ono Your comment about finding it interesting that SS would "come in here and stick up for . .. ." was the very reason I suggested SS read the whole series of posts. It did seem to me, too, that he was sticking up for "Christian" (the poster), and had missed the whole point of what people were saying to and about "Christian." It's interesting to read of your background; and I truly hope SS reads the whole discussion between we posters and Christian, The Expert. I believe he will find more in common with us than he does with his "defense" of Christian. At least, from what he posted, I would hope that is what he will find. Who knows? As you so succinctly pointed out, there are way too many people who CALL themselves Christians while speaking out of both sides of their mouths.

Marc048 Ono A mouth has only one side... The language you use can be double

StefAllegaertOno Score! Even if you seem to have missed the point in your insistence on being accurate in physical description/attributes. It does not, however, change the fact that current-day idiom allows for "speaking out of both sides of the mouth" to be an acceptable phrase. It also deliberately misdirects from the main point of discussion; and I've become so used to The Expert Christian being the one who does that, you threw me for a second. : )

Marc048 Ono Sorry marco. I never heard about this idiom... I guess this just proves my point that it is all about the language you use... And that i read the words you use different then Intended and thenother way around... The lost in translation issue applies in this conversation. guess what it does in translating the word and the bible in all those languages over all that time.... I knew there was an easy way to get my message through and this is it.. The ones who claim to be the experts are the ones who never bring the lost in translation issue in the equasion, and therefor deminIsh the bible to their own language in their place and time and to their small mind.

StefAllegaertMarc048Ono Ironically, I think that language discussion underscores some of the issue here. Context and idioms play vital parts of understanding... and the grotesque way quotes are pulled out of context and hinge on SINGLE word implications is ridiculous. 1 Romans for example... if you read the first chapter in basic concept, it does not make any sense as a discussion of gay relationships, but because there is one word translated as "unnatural", it has become a fricking "gay 10 commandments" in the eyes of the anti-gay crowd. Likewise for the coined word Paul uses in Corinthians which would not be the word he would have used if he meant what was thought to be a "gay man" in those times. It is also strange that he would define a list of people defined by actions and then throw in one group that is defined by their nature instead... the "conventional" translation makes no sense to the context of the other things listed.

I really have to believe that if God REALLY did not want people to be gay that he would not have been so cryptic about it to communicate it in these nebulous citations. He would have said "Love God above all else, Love your neighbor as yourself and oh yeah...Don't be gay." Or "Thou shalt not take graven images, Though shalt not lie, Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father.... and Oh, yeah.... Don't be gay." I really doubt there would be this ridiculous shell game.

Rob WStefAllegaertMarc048Ono And once again, Rob W shoots and scores!

Peace!

Rob W Marc048 Ono This is ecactly my point.. The lost in translation thing is the ley, not the irony... And as for the message , combined with my remarks about texts being close to the original... Ironically, the most contested gospel in the bible, being johns, is possibly the most original one of the 4 because the oldest copy found is just e few decades away from the original... There we find the scene where jesus is sitting at the table with his apostles.. And "the beloved one" is lying against his chest.... If he was anti ay.. That would gave been the point to make a remark..... Did you see one there?

StefAllegaertOno No problemo! (New Word -- problemo; hip way of saying there no reason to be sorry.) Translation does, as you say, enter into every single word uttered, not just old, ancient biblical texts. I was riffing on your "correction" by pointing out the main issue all the posters seem to be having with Christian -- he misdirects and refuses to answer direct questions; that is his modus operandi. Somehow, he thinks it's going to convince all of us that he is an Expert and therefore the FINAL WORD. BTW -- to "speak out of both sides of the mouth" means that you say one thing (or claim to be one thing) and then speak and act in a completely contradictory manner. For example, some people who claim to be Christian, and then act and speak with no love in their hearts, while they express plenty of hate or intolerance.

Rob WStefAllegaertOno And, he'd have had to say, "Oh, yeah! By the way! Those "gay" people -- my bad, my ooops! Ya gotta hate them dudes. They're wrong, just wrong. I made a mistake. Sorry!" Of course, then, he wouldn't have been "infallible," hey?

StefAllegaertRobMarc048Ono I think the relationship in John is fascinating. I don't mention it in these conversations because it is usually too much for even the "open minded" gay issue questioners to take... BUT... here you have a book that distinguishes ONE of the 12 as THE disciple that Jesus loved through out. That is a pretty strong call out of a special love relationship for He who loved all. Then at the Last Supper, you have that disciple literally physically cuddled on Jesus's chest, and is the go-to person for other disciples to get communications to Jesus. (Not to mention that in the Da Vinci painting, the person the Da Vinci Code book tried to depict as Mary Magdalene and Jesus's spouse is widely regarded to actually be John, who looks very feminine and is dressed complimentary to Jesus). Then at the cross, John is there with Jesus's mother and Jesus essentially gives him all of His worldly responsibilities to handle as he would a surviving spouse. In other words, without implying that there was sex involved, the depiction of John and Jesus is essentially the perfect archetype of a same sex marriage as you could find.

StefAllegaertRobMarc048Ono PS. If what I just wrote was too controversial, I blame StefAllergaert... HE brought it up!!! :)

Marc048 Rob W Ono Lol marco... This time the lol means laughing out loud... It took me a few but i senced what the meaning of the idiom was anyhow lol.. And yes.. I kind of wanted to trow tou off guard by my remark.. As for super christian ... Do not give hime to much credit.. I read a few posts and he is not really twisting... He is just narrowing, playing.. Good tip... If he starts trowing around verses again, the just pull out some random ones... Here we go again. .. I do not know the english translation, but incan random pick the following (translated from flemish) " and god spoke: go and spread....". ... And judas went and hung himself........ I know it is plain stupid but it shows to a certain extent how easy it is to just put parts of the bible together at random... Ask superexpert about the ritual rules in the old testament and if he follows them all... Numerous (?) i hope this is the english title of the old testament book... Is full of godly rules your friend is not following... This is the one to get them on!

Rob WStefAllegaertRobOno To be absolutely honest (and I AM the Expert at honesty -- thank you, Christian ;p ) it's not so controversial, as it is yet another step in a direction away from the whole point of Dan's article. That was the one thing I could never get Christian to cop to -- that he had deliberately changed the basis and intent of the article, in order to move it into an area where he wished to be considered an Expert. His "moving the topic" was successful, his attempts at being "considered" an Expert, failed miserably. Have you noticed -- he's been glaringly absent over the past 20 hours or so? Suppose he's licking his wounds of defeat at the hands of us lesser beings?

Rob W Rob Marc048 Ono Indeed inreferred to this.. I want to state though that i do not follow the da vinci code in this, since the whole book is a goos chase basedon an anagram. ROSE for EROS... Da vinci was italian.. That would have been ROSA... And that is not an anagram for eros lol... O my.. It seems inam absessed with language

StefAllegaertRobMarc048Ono Oh-- agreed, the book was a lark. My point was that in that book, it pointed out a spousal figure in the painting of the last supper who looked like a woman, and was dressed complimentary to Jesus. Outside of the book, experts stated that the person actually depicted in the painting was not Mary as the book implied, but John. My point is that if that person seemed "spousal" in the Da Vinci code observation, but was actually JOHN...what does that say about the Jesus/John relationship?

StefAllegaertMarc048Ono VERY well put, Stef!!!! :o)

DotMcFarlane Marc048 Ono Rob W : here i a quote to bring us back to the original post:
" we love, we live, we give what we can give... And take... Whatever we deserve....". From 'love never dies' by andrew lloyd webber.. Not the bible... But it tells us about the human nature... Selfishness gets a place in this very simple line.... Telling us that even when giving we hope somewhere to get somehow something back... And from the comments i got today on my post before, i got fuel for the next 6 months to come! Still i need this super christian back to the forum....

Rob WStefAllegaertMarc048Ono It's a kind of "chicken and egg" question. Do Christians read these supposedly anti-gay Bible passages and become homophobic because of them? Or do homophobes hunt through the Bible looking for any scriptural excuse to justify their homophobia? I tend to think that the latter is true. That's why your garden-variety Christian homophobes are usually so impervious to logic. They do NOT want to give up their precious Biblically-sanctioned excuses to hate gays. In a similar fashion, racists use certain Bible passages to justify their racism, and so do men wanting an excuse to subjugate women. It's the same dynamic. I think the only real hope is to wait for the older generation of Christian-identified haters to die out so that the younger, more enlightened generations can change the nature of the dialogue.

SFClintRob WStefAllegaertMarc048 The only thing I know is that hate and prejudice is something that is learned.

Ono "More Christians are waking up and turning away from the old ways as they realize that it is chock full of hate." I LOVE this comment, as it describes exactly what my journey has been like!!!! :o)

DotMcFarlane That realization was what allowed me to come back. I grew up thinking that love was the most important thing in a world of clanging gongs, I guess they forgot to give me the memo. :) (BTW, 1 Corinthians 13 is my favorite chapter in the whole book.)

It's nice to know a fellow journeyperson. Pleased to meet you.