I promise you it doesn’t matter what you believe, how strongly you live your beliefs, or how true your beliefs are. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks you are in the wrong. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks your beliefs are senseless or illogical. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks you have it all wrong. In fact, there are a lot of people in this world who do.
We each understand that. We already know that. It’s the world we live in and we’re not naïve. We’re not stupid. We get it.
Yet, we expect and want love anyway. We expect and want understanding. We expect and want tolerance. We expect and want humanity. We expect and want respect for our beliefs, even from those who don’t believe the same things we do. Even from those who think we’re wrong, unwise, or incorrect.
We expect all of that from the people who disagree with us and who disagree with our lifestyles and beliefs because, let’s be honest, nothing we do is actually bad enough to be worthy of disgust, anger, hatred, or cold-shouldering. Right? None of the ways in which we live our lives would warrant such behavior. Right? None of our beliefs are worthy of ugly disdain from others.
Right?
No, we’re all… perfect. Freaking, amazingly, impossibly… perfect.
But the gays… well, shoot.
[sigh]
You know what I think?
Let this sink in for a minute…
I think it doesn’t matter if you or I or anybody else thinks homosexuality is a sin. It doesn’t matter if you or I think anything is a sin. It doesn’t matter if homosexuality is a sin or not. In fact, it doesn’t matter if anything anybody else does is a sin or not.
Because sin is a very personal thing! It always has been and it always will be!
And it has nothing to do with love.
Absolutely nothing.
Disparity and difference have nothing to do with love.
We shouldn’t choose who we will love and who we won’t.
“I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.”
That’s the message we’re sending, you know.
“I’m Christian, unless I’m hotter than you.”
“I’m Christian, unless I’m uglier than you.”
“I’m Christian, unless I found out you cheated on your income taxes.”
“I’m Christian, unless you cut me off in traffic.”
“I’m Christian, unless you fall in love with the person I once fell in love with.”
“I’m Christian, unless you’re that guy who smells like crap on the subway.”
“I’m Christian, unless you’re of a different religion.”
“Oh, but you’re not gay? You’re clean, and well dressed, and you have a job? You look the way I think you should look? You act the way I think you should act? You believe the things I think you should believe? Then I’m definitely a Christian. To you, today, I’m a Christian. You’ve earned it.”
I bet you’ve heard that message coming from others. Maybe you’ve given that message to others.
Either way, I hope we all can agree that we mustn’t live that message. We just shouldn’t.
But many of us do.
And we do it all the time.
For some of us, it might as well be tattooed across our necks and foreheads.
Maybe not in those words, but the message is clear to those who hear and are listening. It’s clear to those who are watching and seeing.
The message has been very clear to my friend Jacob.
“Every single person I’ve told has ditched me. They just disappear. They stop calling. They remove me on Facebook. They’re just gone. They can’t handle knowing and being friends with a gay person.”
“You don’t know what it’s like, man. You don’t know what it’s like to live here and be gay. You don’t know what it’s like to have freaking nobody. You don’t know what it’s like to have your own parents hate you and try and cover up your existence. I didn’t choose this. I didn’t want this. And I’m so tired of people hating me for it. I can’t take it anymore. I just can’t.”
Jacob is a dear friend. He’s my brother. He’s a damn good human being. He’s absolutely incredible.
He’s also gay.
But why does that make any difference at all?
It doesn’t. Not to me.
And I wish with everything inside of me that it didn’t make any difference to others. I wish we didn’t all have to find ways that we’re better than others or more holy and saintly than others in order to feel better about our own messy selves. I wish people wouldn’t cluster entire groups of people together and declare the whole lot unworthy of any love and respect.
But that is the point of such thinking and action, isn’t it? I mean, it’s simpler that way. It makes it easier for us to justify our thoughts, words, and prejudices that way.
All these people become clumped together. And in the process, they all somehow become less than human.
They become unworthy of our love.
And what a great thing it is when that happens, right? I mean, it helps us to free ourselves from the very directives that have been passed down for millennia from the greatest teachers and philosophers in history. It makes our rationalization for hatred, bigotry, and abhorrence so easily justifiable; so maskable.
So right.
It gives us the golden chance to look at ourselves and not be disgusted by what the glass reflects back at us.
Then, sadly and ultimately, it pushes us to that point where we no longer have any sort of arm to put around others at all. We no longer have a hand to offer our fellow human beings. We no longer have a need to.
And why would we?
Why the hell should we?
Unless, of course, we actually want to live what we all so often claim that we “believe.”
My dear friends…
This has to stop. We have to put our ugly picket signs down. We have to be the examples that help make it happen in our own lives and in the lives of the people that surround us.
We have to be that voice. We each must be that voice.
We must tell others that we will not accept or listen to such hurtful and hateful sentiments.
We must show love where love right now doesn’t exist.
Will you please join me?
My request today is simple. Today. Tomorrow. Next week. Find somebody, anybody, that’s different than you. Somebody that has made you feel ill-will or even [gulp...] hateful. Somebody whose life decisions have made you uncomfortable. Somebody who practices a different religion than you do. Somebody who has been lost to addiction. Somebody with a criminal past. Somebody who dresses “below” you. Somebody with disabilities. Somebody who lives an alternative lifestyle. Somebody without a home.
Somebody that you, until now, would always avoid, always look down on, and always be disgusted by.
Reach your arm out and put it around them.
And then, tell them they’re all right. Tell them they have a friend. Tell them you love them.
If you or I wanna make a change in this world, that’s where we’re gonna be able to do it. That’s where we’ll start.
Every. Single. Time.
Because what you’ll find, and I promise you this, is that the more you put your arm around those that you might naturally look down on, the more you will love yourself. And the more you love yourself, the less need you’ll ever have to find fault or be better than others. And the less we all find fault or have a need to be better than others, the quicker this world becomes a far better place to live.
And don’t we all want to live in a better world? Don’t we all want our kids to grow up in a better, less hateful, more beautiful world?
I know I do.
So let’s be that voice. Let’s offer that arm to others. Because, the honest truth is… there’s gonna come a day when you or I are going to need that same courtesy. There’s going to come a day that we are desperate for that same arm to be put around us. We’ll be desperate for that same friendship. We’ll be desperate for that same love.
Life will make sure of it. For you. For me. For everyone.
It always does because… as it turns out… there’s not a damn person on earth who’s perfect.
Dan Pearce, Single Dad Laughing
PS. I would love your comments and thoughts today. More than anything, I’d really like to hear people’s individual struggles. I’d like to hear your struggles. I believe that everybody will benefit as we all share that which hurts us and haunts us.
When have you seen or experienced this? What effects has it had in your life or the lives of others that are close to you? Have you ever seen positive results as people become more loving toward those who are different? How have you felt along the way?
There are those who have struggled because they have been on the receiving end of it. And there are those who have struggled as they work to overcome it. I’ve grappled on both sides.
This message is so important to me; among the most important that this faulted blogger has ever written and because of that I have no hesitation asking you to share it. If it’s important to you, too, please share it. If you believe its message needs to be spread, please share it. Use your voice for that which it was meant.
Use your voice to embolden the world. Use your voice to say, “enough is enough.” Use your voice to stand up and declare that there is no other way besides love.
With all my heart. Please.
NOTE: Please use the like button above which will send people to page one instead of to page three. 
Six days after publishing this, I posted a few powerful responses that I have received. Please take a moment to read them as I believe they’re 100 times more powerful than anything I could ever write.
Also, please watch an equally powerful “responses video” that I posted two weeks later. If you’re like me, the things others say and the incredible things that continue to happen will level you mentally.
Some other of my most popular posts that I would really encourage you to read:
The Disease Called “Perfection”
You just broke your child. Congratulations.
Memoirs of a Bullied Kid.
Worthless Women and the Men who Make Them
Bullied. The forgotten Memoirs.
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Ono
BeckyDobbinsWilder "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU" unless you're a masochist, then all bets are off. :)
StefAllegaert
I have red some but not all of the posts... Here we go.. I have a master in theology.. English is not my native language, so bear with me if i use not the exact words you are used to regarding theology and the bible.. I have read the bible in my native langage (flemish) and parts of it in latin, greec and hebrew, in an attempt to try to get even a grasp of an idea of what could and may be the real meaning of some of the words...
So first of all to all you bible experts out there , you have to realise that the oldest fragments of the bible found, were copies, and the eldest copy of parts of the bible have at least decades, and up to 200 years and more between them and the time the original texts were written down ..... See how a message in the media can be changed in a day to something completely different and then imagine what can happen to it in 200 years..
Secondly, we found alot of scriptures that are way way way more close to the period that jesus lived and therefor may be (i said MAY) more true to the things jesus teached. Those scriptures came to our attention about 2000 years after jesus lived among us and are genuine, but not accepted by church.... Not because they are false, but because some of them are in contrast to teachings our mother church has been teaching during centuries...
I will not go through all bad things that have been done in history in the name of religion.. I guess all faiths have their idiots at the top and in their preaching chairs that rally up people to commit crimes against god and humanity....
As a trained scolar, i also realize that we do have troubles to read the bible in the way it was ment, because our minds, souls and thoughts have been formed and influenced by the texts we have heard , read, and have been teached about since our childhood... And people that keep on trowing bible verses around to prove they have the right to call people that "deviate" are sinners, must realise that they use texts that
1. Are copies from copies from copies
2. That writers in the time jesus lived also wrote down things that "jesus would of could have sad" as "things that jesus has said... This where not lies .. It was how history writers in that ages worked... The same was done with all ancient history personae.. And guess what, it is also exactly what all of us do when we use the bible to prove our points
3. That your bible and the words that you use are a TRANSLATION and therefor are per definition altered... If i use my flemish bible text and try to citate from a verse and use that as a base in an english discussion, i need to use a translation... Guess what, most of you do not even know what verse i am talking about, because my translation is based on a flemish translation of a latin text of a greec copy of the life of jesus, who spoke aramaic.... The only texts found in this language about this man are put away in vaults in the vatican...
So now, lets get back to this expertise some of you claim to have..... I think all of the above should make you feel humble, because you don't have any idea to be sure if what you say is even close to the original teaching...
Having said that... If i am wrong and the bible as you know it is the pure word of god, then why is the bible full of contradictions.. Even regarding some of gods laws and rituals.... And even more interesting: WHY does every town in the USA has its own church or belief .. Mormons, cathiolics. Greec copts, baptists, reformed, lutherans,, and all of them split in even more subgroups and churches..... It is all the same bible and yet all of you do not agree with other chirstian groups that use the same texts.. Another humbling thing to think about...
So when you put it all together... All those different church groups are the result of a group of people not agreeing with another group and starting to spraid their own teachings... And all of them claim to speak in the name of god and his son... Am i the only one seeing here something is wrong with the picture?
I can go on and on...
Let us all get a bit more humble even... If we can not find the text that proves or point, or if the text we use is questioned by others, we use the oldest trick in the book: " i studied the text so i am right and you are not ...". Or even more simple "because it is the word of god" ... To all of you that love to use this as proof.. I say. "HOW DARE YOU claim that you truely know and understand the word of god... HOW DARE YOU...."
Thousands of others claim the same and reach other conclusions... It would make me wonder if i was right after all, but i am not sure that you do........
In the end... All those churches and all those subgroups and all these fanatics who use the bible to hurt people because they do not agree with their way of life, do this from one motivation and one only... POWER... That is the alfa and omega of religious fanatics.. And all those churchgroups and christian split offs came from people that either wanted more power for themselves or did not agree on how the main religious group in their society used the power given to them.
I know the fanatics under you already are fuming about this post. The more intelligent readers will read it, hopefully forgive me if my english is not correct and maybe the latter ones will try to refrase some of my sentences to make sure they understand what i try to say here.. And those people, the non fanatics, will also realise my post is in no way an attack to christianity or to religion, but an attack to those who use and abuse the bible, gods word and god for the power thing i mentioned above...
And now back to the original message here... Gay bullying, as all bullying at all is wrong .. And the bullies only do it to feel in control, to feel they have the POWER to control some one elses life or the way some one else lives...
The power circle closes here, a neat silver circle... That some of you wear as your own crown that shows you deserve to go to heaven... I see a circle of power, one to rule them all.....
Please feel free to use and copy this text or parts of it if you want, and please correct the text .. But i would also like to be quoted by name.. And this is my real one.. Stef Allegaert, male, 47, belgium and having a steady relationship and living together since 1986 with my one and only first love, who happens to be a man too.. I mean a real man, not a bully..
Live safe and worthy and respect your neighbor and fellow human.. There may come a time you need him, he even may save your life one day...
Ono
StefAllegaert It is definitely a power over. Thank you for your words, it is very tiring sometimes to keep on talking to them, but everytime we speak up, we are that much closer to stopping the bullying and hatred. I know it will never be totally stamped out, but at least we can confine it to the fringes.
StefAllegaert
Ono I just tried to give it another intake....i have been talking to rocks so long with facts and figures and the, started to,realise this makes no sense because one starts to do what they do.. Take fragments of texts as a weapon against other fragments of texts... We need to realise that every word spoken in the name of.. Is an interpretation...
Rob W
StefAllegaert Now THAT is a post from someone I beleive IS a true expert! Thanks for that StefAllegaert! Your English was great...
southernboy
StefAllegaert Stef- you said it quite well. I don't think your English/grammer skills took one bit away from your post.
Congratulations on your having found the love of your life. I wish you many happy years together. I am a gay 52 year old man and a Christian. I lost my love in 1994 to AIDS. He was a wonderful man and I miss him so. Garry
StefAllegaert
southernboy Tnx Garry, I am sorry to hear about your loss, 1year ago or 18yeas ago.. The pain still is the same... Cherrish the memories and know that what is and was between you and him can never be wrong.by thinking of him you honor his life and your love... Good on you! LOL... Meaning LOTS OF LOVE !!!!! Tnx for sharing.... By doing this we take the emphasis away from the bullies straight to the love for others around it and doing that their messages gets watered down.. As it should.... But having said that.. I will never water down my beliefs... I am and will be intolerant to the intolerants... In fact i have to do this if i respect their strong feelings i guess. Respect for you , garry
Rob W
StefAllegaertsouthernboy Thank you both for reminding people that we are more than just people with opinions on an issue as many of the anti-gay posters are. We are people with cherished lives that deserve greater respect than "I happen to believe that homosexuality (in other words, your life) is a sin".
I am a 54 year old single dad raising two nine year old sons, adopted from fostercare. My ex partner is barely in the picture having gotten involved with prescription drugs and alcohol. My sons and I are a family and me being gay is part of that family's identity. I don't feel the need to apologize for it morally, emotionally or spiritually and neither should my kids.
StefAllegaert
Rob W southernboy Rob... I am sure u are a great dad.. Respect.. And never apologize for what u are, christian or not.... The whole blog is just about this... We all are people that can love and live without hurting anyone... And we are certainly not a threath to the institution of marriage... Me and erik got married by law... Not a legal construction giving gay partners same rights as heterosexuals, but a real legal marriage, in 2003, being one of the first couples in the world to be able to do this.... And believe me, i have sent alot of mails to members of óur congress to make sure the law got passed in parliament and published in time.... Guess what... The marriage here has not changed... So never never give in'. We are here and we are part of society as valuable members... We have to be proud and not to apologize
Rob W
StefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Congratulations StefAllegaert, and great respect in return. Thank you for leading the way -- I am embarrassed how backwards America is regarding gay relationships and I have fought my whole adult life to try and change that here.
Several years ago the city of San Francisco made a great stir by allowing gay couples to marry. It only lasted for a few weeks before shutting down, but on Valentines day that year, my then partner (the one I adopted the boys with) and I married with our sons in tow. Weeks later the state dissolved the marriage, but we were on the 6 o clock news with our boys in the local area. I was proud to stand for something very important for gay families. Sadly, our marriage did not last... but I am extremely happy for you and that yours has... sincere and wonderful blessings on you!!
SFClint
Rob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy I live in San Francisco too (hence "SFClint"). It's good to have a fellow commenter in my back yard. :-) After reading some of the more hateful posts here, it reminds me of how nice it is to live in this liberal oasis.
Marc048
SFClintRob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Wow! Clint, I've missed these hateful posts. I've been too zeroed in on Christian, I guess. Could you please name the particular posters you refer to? I feel the need, nay the DUTY, to call these people out. In postings about an article with the basic tenant that we all need to love those who are different, to discontinue bullying those people, it is downright reprehensible to espouse such hatred. They cannot be allowed to do so without rebuttal. And, a reminder that they are no better than any other person on Earth. To believe they are better, and to act as though they are better, is an opinion of which they need to be disabused, IMMEDIATELY.
Rob W
SFClintStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy I am about an hour and a half south of you Clint... but you are correct, it is a bit of an oasis... my county voted AGAINST Prop 8 95% to 5%
SFClint
Marc048Rob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy "Christian" was the most recent. I've been following (and participating) in this comment thread almost from the beginning. Some of the older posts make Christian look like the soul of enlightenment. A few were extremely hateful and abusive, and if you want to, just follow the threads back far enough and you'll find them. But they're ancient history now. The people who posted have long since fled the field, and there's no point rehashing them. I doubt that the posters are even following this chain anymore.
Marc048
SFClintRob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Okay, that's cool, I don't need to dredge up old crap. I didn't know they were so old. But, really, Christian the "Soul of Enlightenment"??? Holy Crap. Those must have been reeeeaaaalllllyyyyy nasty posts. I am SO glad I didn't see those. You're also right about them probably not following this thread anymore. That kind usually is a "hit & run" kind of creep -- you know, make nasty comments, a few particularly evil responses, then run away. Usually don't have the stones to stand up to criticism -- much too weak-natured to handle the truth which would get thrown at them. Anyway, g'nite. I have to go lay down -- the thought of Christian as the S of E gives me the vapors. : )
Marc048SFClintRob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy You'd best bust out your smelling salts!
Marc048
SFClintRob WStefAllegaertRobsouthernboy Ha ha! Don't you know it!! Ewwwwwww.
Rob W
SFClintMarc048StefAllegaertRobsouthernboy One of the earlier one's was either "Christian" under another name (he denied that it was) or a poster who claimed a different religious affiliation but had the exact same "expert" bravado, and also claimed to read the New Testament in Hebrew. His writing pattern was identical and the profile picture looked like they could be the same person.
SFClint
Rob WMarc048StefAllegaertRobsouthernboy "Christian" was pompous and arrogant (though I suspect that underneath the arrogance was tremendous insecurity) but he wasn't really all that hateful or abusive. I've been on other Christian comment threads where I was pretty much the only pro-gay voice. Whether what prompted me was the naive view that I could reason with those people or I was motivated by simple masochism, the responses I received were often extraordinarily hateful and vicious, all coming from people who described themselves as "Christian". It soon became clear that those people loved their hatred too much to give it up for logic or reason, and so I made a rapid retreat. The beauty with this current thread is that the pro-gay posters predominate, and when some homophobic jerk wanders onto the scene, he's usually pretty much on his own.
Hey, I think a lot of people here are missing the point. EVERYONE is guilty of looking down on someone for being different. The fact that you're pointing out Christians and blaming them makes you just as guilty. We shouldn't be saying "Christians are awful" or "Men are awful" or "Muslims are awful". People are awful, and you'll find a sampling of that in every demographic, be it religious, racial, gender, what have you.You'll also find a sampling of self-righteousness and prejudice or judgment in every individual. No one is exempt from it; we just have to fight it. It's our responsibility as people to move past our base fears and inclinations and find love in our hearts for every living thing out there.
It wouldn't be stressed so much in religious texts if it was easy to do. There aren't any major religious texts that command "Thou shalt not forget to breathe", as far as I know. This article is about encouraging people to battle their selfishness and find a place in their hearts for people from every walk of life. And you know what? Those hateful, bigoted people can't really like themselves very much deep down, or they wouldn't be so full of anger. They need love too, maybe starting with you.
By "you", I didn't mean the author. I meant the commenters who are pointing fingers at the people they think need practice being more loving.
Rob W
I think if you follow the conversations, they are not focused on making a point that "Christians are awful", they are speaking to points or opinions made here by those who claim to speak for "Christianity" justifying their own anti-gay stance. As a Christian, I believe those points should be discussed and ignorance behind them dispelled. Those points do dramatic harm to many people, particularly young people who are bullied and those like the young man Dan describes in the article. Also, in my opinion, those opinions do harm to Christianity itself and gut it of its true Purpose and value.
I disagree with your world view of "Everyone" being "awful" and self-righteous. If that is the case, your call to fight selfishness is pretty hollow since, if you were correct, everyone just naturally is prejudiced. To follow your analogy, it would be like asking them not to breathe.
I have known many, many selfless people. I have also seen people get more information around their prejudices and walk away from old beliefs. Anger is not the only motivation for bigotry... sometimes it is the fear that they are gay themselves...sometimes it is a fear that if they question that precept that their religion has mandated that they will have a crisis of faith over other things they were told. What often dispels bigotry is information, although absorbing that information is not necessarily quick or easy.
I get your intention for everyone to just love everyone else (although you don't seem to believe it is in their nature to do so). And I think that is a great objective. There is a line however, when to "love" the other person it means accepting lies, distortions or a sense of humiliation they are insisting that you need to identify as your own existence.
Rob W Woo, I missed a bunch of exciting stuff in the last 14 hours! I actually wasn't referring to the conversation with "Christian", though that was interesting, and I did read it. There was a video posted and some nasty comments before that, which were what I was referring to.
My point was that no one is purely selfless or purely selfish (though, granted, I was using some hyperbole), and that none of us are free from the snares that we see tripping up other people. Just because we're inherently a crazy mix of selflessness and selfishness, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for the ideal. I get tired of people talking about how closed minded everyone around them is, while spewing equally closed minded statements about how closed minded people are. It's just a vicious little circle.
It's been said many times on here that loving someone is different from loving what they do, say, or believe. I totally agree with your point that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed; however, I think that people fear that showing love is what drags them down that path.
Anyway, thanks for your insights! I hope that the folks who read this come away filled with a little more compassion than they had when they started. I know I am. I'm sure this little paragraphical collection is all over the place, as it is late for me, but hopefully that helps clarify a little bit. Or just gives me a place for my internet verbal barrage. Either way is good with me.
SFClint
Rob W "It's been said many times on here that loving someone is different from loving what they do"...Yes, too many times, in fact. It sounds painfully close to the old "love the sinner, hate the sin" bromide that those oh so pious homophobic Christians love to quote, a line that sets my teeth on edge. This is not to imply that I think that's what you meant, SS; in fact, I'm sure it wasn't. But it's just that when I see a sentiment like that expressed, I feel myself getting defensive all over again. But that's just me.
Marc048
SS: I hope you will read the whole set of comments, posted between "Christian" (not Christians in general, but a poster who chose to label himself -- him, from his picture -- "Christian") and a number of others who took umbrage with "Christian's" statements. For myself, my argument with Christian was basically as yours. The article was about Love and how we treat others who are different. Christian chose to corrupt the article and change it to a "definition" of Christianity, and then proceeded to make some really specious charges. Rob W., SFClint, Ono, Evan, Tom, and several others whose monikers I forgot at the moment, chose to enter into a "discussion" (as Christian called them) about his charges, as well as his continually falling back on his being an "Expert" and basically using that as a means of claiming he was right and everybody else was wrong. These were not discussions, because a discussion involves both sides making statements of beliefs, hopefully adding to the knowledge of the opposing side. These were one-sided rants by Christian, with no intent from him to learn anything, but to force each every other person who responded to him, to believe in his superiority of knowledge because he is an "Expert," and deserves to be considered an expert. He challenged everybody to "prove" their opinions, but would only rely on his "Expertise" to defend his own bigotry -- including the old chestnut, "I have many gay friends, but . . ." Overall, your comment shows you did indeed understand the intent of the article. Read all these comments with Christian, and I think you will find that not only did Rob W., SFClint, Ono, Evan, Tom, Myself and others understand the intent of the article, we were attempting to show Christian how he seems to have missed the intent entirely, and then deliberately changed it to some idea for which he could/would only claim Expert Status and therefor was correct in his bigotry. As I said elsewhere, he (Christian) was very good, though, at whining and crying about being a martyr and being abused. Peace and Love, SS.
SFClint
You raise an interesting point, SS. But just to clarify things, this most recent chain of comments was not pointing fingers at some generic group, i.e.,saying "Christians are bad" (especially since it seems that most of the commentators identify themselves as Christians). It was in response to one person misquoting Christian scripture to engage in gay bashing. Obviously this aroused some heated emotions. The broader question would be "What would be the most skillful response?" In all honesty, I don't know. When confronted with hateful lies, I believe that sometimes "turning the other cheek" is not the best response, and that a strong push back, confronting the hate and calling it for what it is, is more appropriate. Especially when the hate is presented as "Christian love" But I can also see that responding to hate with hate has problems too. Maybe, just maybe, "Christian" will be a little more reluctant to engage in queer bashing the next time around, considering the responses he encountered. Who knows? I know that what he said made me angry, since I've been on the receiving end of this kind of bigotry for over 40 years, and have experienced first hand the hurtfulness of it. I also read about gay teenagers killing themselves because of similar hateful messages and it breaks my heart. But you're right Someone saying the hateful things that "Christian" said must be coming from a deeply unhappy place. Do we pile up on him or do we try to address his pain? And if the latter, then what's the best way for doing that, while still letting it be known that such bigotry is unacceptable? It's a difficult question and I don't have an easy answer.
Ono
SS, I know in the past I had a difficult time thinking all Christians were the same. I grew up in a fundamentalist family, and carried a lot of access baggage from it. I left the religion, because I couldn't stomach the hatred. How I was able to see what was happening and get out, I don't know, my siblings are still steeped in the hatred. My brother the minister looked me straight in the eye and told me he didn't want health care for all because he didn't believe we should pay for care of gays with aids. I have a lifetime of them speaking about God's love out of one side of their mouths and see no compassion or love in their actions.
I've come to realize that not all Christians are this way. I've come back to it and belong to a church that actively teaches and does the work of love. I may not always speak in the correct way, but I am a work in progress. However, I do take a stand against the bullies; and can be quite outspoken about it. It may come across that I am bashing Christians, but my intent is to fight for my LGBT brothers and sisters who have been harmed by the teachings of most Christians. More Christians are waking up and turning away from the old ways as they realize that it is chock full of hate. If we don't speak out against it, it won't change. I've been actively speaking out against it for almost 2 decades and a lot of changes have happened. It doesn't help to be silent about it, nothing changes.
I do find it interesting that you come in here and stick up for those who are trying to justify their prejudices, as if they are the ones who are the victims in this particular forum.
Marc048
Ono Your comment about finding it interesting that SS would "come in here and stick up for . .. ." was the very reason I suggested SS read the whole series of posts. It did seem to me, too, that he was sticking up for "Christian" (the poster), and had missed the whole point of what people were saying to and about "Christian." It's interesting to read of your background; and I truly hope SS reads the whole discussion between we posters and Christian, The Expert. I believe he will find more in common with us than he does with his "defense" of Christian. At least, from what he posted, I would hope that is what he will find. Who knows? As you so succinctly pointed out, there are way too many people who CALL themselves Christians while speaking out of both sides of their mouths.
StefAllegaert
Marc048 Ono A mouth has only one side... The language you use can be double
Marc048
StefAllegaertOno Score! Even if you seem to have missed the point in your insistence on being accurate in physical description/attributes. It does not, however, change the fact that current-day idiom allows for "speaking out of both sides of the mouth" to be an acceptable phrase. It also deliberately misdirects from the main point of discussion; and I've become so used to The Expert Christian being the one who does that, you threw me for a second. : )
StefAllegaert
Marc048 Ono Sorry marco. I never heard about this idiom... I guess this just proves my point that it is all about the language you use... And that i read the words you use different then Intended and thenother way around... The lost in translation issue applies in this conversation. guess what it does in translating the word and the bible in all those languages over all that time.... I knew there was an easy way to get my message through and this is it.. The ones who claim to be the experts are the ones who never bring the lost in translation issue in the equasion, and therefor deminIsh the bible to their own language in their place and time and to their small mind.
Rob W
StefAllegaertMarc048Ono Ironically, I think that language discussion underscores some of the issue here. Context and idioms play vital parts of understanding... and the grotesque way quotes are pulled out of context and hinge on SINGLE word implications is ridiculous. 1 Romans for example... if you read the first chapter in basic concept, it does not make any sense as a discussion of gay relationships, but because there is one word translated as "unnatural", it has become a fricking "gay 10 commandments" in the eyes of the anti-gay crowd. Likewise for the coined word Paul uses in Corinthians which would not be the word he would have used if he meant what was thought to be a "gay man" in those times. It is also strange that he would define a list of people defined by actions and then throw in one group that is defined by their nature instead... the "conventional" translation makes no sense to the context of the other things listed.
I really have to believe that if God REALLY did not want people to be gay that he would not have been so cryptic about it to communicate it in these nebulous citations. He would have said "Love God above all else, Love your neighbor as yourself and oh yeah...Don't be gay." Or "Thou shalt not take graven images, Though shalt not lie, Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father.... and Oh, yeah.... Don't be gay." I really doubt there would be this ridiculous shell game.
JerryMetellus
Rob WStefAllegaertMarc048Ono And once again, Rob W shoots and scores!
Peace!
StefAllegaert
Rob W Marc048 Ono This is ecactly my point.. The lost in translation thing is the ley, not the irony... And as for the message , combined with my remarks about texts being close to the original... Ironically, the most contested gospel in the bible, being johns, is possibly the most original one of the 4 because the oldest copy found is just e few decades away from the original... There we find the scene where jesus is sitting at the table with his apostles.. And "the beloved one" is lying against his chest.... If he was anti ay.. That would gave been the point to make a remark..... Did you see one there?
Marc048
StefAllegaertOno No problemo! (New Word -- problemo; hip way of saying there no reason to be sorry.) Translation does, as you say, enter into every single word uttered, not just old, ancient biblical texts. I was riffing on your "correction" by pointing out the main issue all the posters seem to be having with Christian -- he misdirects and refuses to answer direct questions; that is his modus operandi. Somehow, he thinks it's going to convince all of us that he is an Expert and therefore the FINAL WORD. BTW -- to "speak out of both sides of the mouth" means that you say one thing (or claim to be one thing) and then speak and act in a completely contradictory manner. For example, some people who claim to be Christian, and then act and speak with no love in their hearts, while they express plenty of hate or intolerance.
Marc048
Rob WStefAllegaertOno And, he'd have had to say, "Oh, yeah! By the way! Those "gay" people -- my bad, my ooops! Ya gotta hate them dudes. They're wrong, just wrong. I made a mistake. Sorry!" Of course, then, he wouldn't have been "infallible," hey?
Rob W
StefAllegaertRobMarc048Ono I think the relationship in John is fascinating. I don't mention it in these conversations because it is usually too much for even the "open minded" gay issue questioners to take... BUT... here you have a book that distinguishes ONE of the 12 as THE disciple that Jesus loved through out. That is a pretty strong call out of a special love relationship for He who loved all. Then at the Last Supper, you have that disciple literally physically cuddled on Jesus's chest, and is the go-to person for other disciples to get communications to Jesus. (Not to mention that in the Da Vinci painting, the person the Da Vinci Code book tried to depict as Mary Magdalene and Jesus's spouse is widely regarded to actually be John, who looks very feminine and is dressed complimentary to Jesus). Then at the cross, John is there with Jesus's mother and Jesus essentially gives him all of His worldly responsibilities to handle as he would a surviving spouse. In other words, without implying that there was sex involved, the depiction of John and Jesus is essentially the perfect archetype of a same sex marriage as you could find.
Rob W
StefAllegaertRobMarc048Ono PS. If what I just wrote was too controversial, I blame StefAllergaert... HE brought it up!!! :)
StefAllegaert
Marc048 Rob W Ono Lol marco... This time the lol means laughing out loud... It took me a few but i senced what the meaning of the idiom was anyhow lol.. And yes.. I kind of wanted to trow tou off guard by my remark.. As for super christian ... Do not give hime to much credit.. I read a few posts and he is not really twisting... He is just narrowing, playing.. Good tip... If he starts trowing around verses again, the just pull out some random ones... Here we go again. .. I do not know the english translation, but incan random pick the following (translated from flemish) " and god spoke: go and spread....". ... And judas went and hung himself........ I know it is plain stupid but it shows to a certain extent how easy it is to just put parts of the bible together at random... Ask superexpert about the ritual rules in the old testament and if he follows them all... Numerous (?) i hope this is the english title of the old testament book... Is full of godly rules your friend is not following... This is the one to get them on!
Marc048
Rob WStefAllegaertRobOno To be absolutely honest (and I AM the Expert at honesty -- thank you, Christian ;p ) it's not so controversial, as it is yet another step in a direction away from the whole point of Dan's article. That was the one thing I could never get Christian to cop to -- that he had deliberately changed the basis and intent of the article, in order to move it into an area where he wished to be considered an Expert. His "moving the topic" was successful, his attempts at being "considered" an Expert, failed miserably. Have you noticed -- he's been glaringly absent over the past 20 hours or so? Suppose he's licking his wounds of defeat at the hands of us lesser beings?
StefAllegaert
Rob W Rob Marc048 Ono Indeed inreferred to this.. I want to state though that i do not follow the da vinci code in this, since the whole book is a goos chase basedon an anagram. ROSE for EROS... Da vinci was italian.. That would have been ROSA... And that is not an anagram for eros lol... O my.. It seems inam absessed with language
Rob W
StefAllegaertRobMarc048Ono Oh-- agreed, the book was a lark. My point was that in that book, it pointed out a spousal figure in the painting of the last supper who looked like a woman, and was dressed complimentary to Jesus. Outside of the book, experts stated that the person actually depicted in the painting was not Mary as the book implied, but John. My point is that if that person seemed "spousal" in the Da Vinci code observation, but was actually JOHN...what does that say about the Jesus/John relationship?
DotMcFarlane
StefAllegaertMarc048Ono VERY well put, Stef!!!! :o)
StefAllegaert
DotMcFarlane Marc048 Ono Rob W : here i a quote to bring us back to the original post:
" we love, we live, we give what we can give... And take... Whatever we deserve....". From 'love never dies' by andrew lloyd webber.. Not the bible... But it tells us about the human nature... Selfishness gets a place in this very simple line.... Telling us that even when giving we hope somewhere to get somehow something back... And from the comments i got today on my post before, i got fuel for the next 6 months to come! Still i need this super christian back to the forum....
SFClint
Rob WStefAllegaertMarc048Ono It's a kind of "chicken and egg" question. Do Christians read these supposedly anti-gay Bible passages and become homophobic because of them? Or do homophobes hunt through the Bible looking for any scriptural excuse to justify their homophobia? I tend to think that the latter is true. That's why your garden-variety Christian homophobes are usually so impervious to logic. They do NOT want to give up their precious Biblically-sanctioned excuses to hate gays. In a similar fashion, racists use certain Bible passages to justify their racism, and so do men wanting an excuse to subjugate women. It's the same dynamic. I think the only real hope is to wait for the older generation of Christian-identified haters to die out so that the younger, more enlightened generations can change the nature of the dialogue.
Ono
SFClintRob WStefAllegaertMarc048 The only thing I know is that hate and prejudice is something that is learned.
DotMcFarlane
Ono "More Christians are waking up and turning away from the old ways as they realize that it is chock full of hate." I LOVE this comment, as it describes exactly what my journey has been like!!!! :o)
Ono
DotMcFarlane That realization was what allowed me to come back. I grew up thinking that love was the most important thing in a world of clanging gongs, I guess they forgot to give me the memo. :) (BTW, 1 Corinthians 13 is my favorite chapter in the whole book.)
It's nice to know a fellow journeyperson. Pleased to meet you.
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I applaud you for this blog! I am amazed at the amount of hatred that pours off of people who are supposed to be living a life of love and acceptance. I am currently in a discussion with someone who, when they found out the religious path I follow, said to me.. "It's ok, I'm a Christian so I still love you, through and through"...maybe not those exact words, but close enough. It felt as if they were saying to me....I'll love you because I'm a Christian, not because you're worth loving on your own". I had mentioned this conversation in a message board I own, and one of my members/admins posted a link to this blog. How fitting!!!
As the biological mother of a gay daughter (I was forced to give her up for adoption at birth because I was only 16 when I had her....have since found her and have an awesome relationship)...it doesn't matter if I agree, or disagree with her life style and partner choice. What matters, is that I love her...unconditionally, as I do my other two daughters. As a person with disabilities that aren't readily visible, I get a lot of flack from people who say "well, you look fine so it can't be that bad" type comments. AUGH! People, when you have a headache, I can't see it, but I don't dispute if you have it or not! I am still on my own 2 feet, and plan to be that way for as long as my spine, and other issues, will allow. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get a wheelchair just to satisfy someone else's need to "SEE" my disabilities so they may then know they are real. My spine is not the only disabling problem I have...but like that, they are not visible.
To further the comment about the Christian I referred to above, I am Pagan.....I was a Christian until about 8-9 years ago. I got tired of always trying to 'measure up' to the Christian standards that I saw in most (not all) Christians, and found that in Paganism, I am allowed to set my own standards of 'measuring up' and find that my standards are actually considerably higher than those I was taught in the Christian environment I grew up in. I never really liked who I was as a Christian...now, I adore my life. It's much more peaceful. I did bring many of the Christian teachings along, such as the ones on love and acceptance. One of my favorite things to do is to secretly do something nice for someone. Something unexpected and I do my best to do it annonamously (sp?). There have been times my husband and I have seen someone on a corner with a sign...will work for food....we'll go get a burger, fries and drink and take to them. One family approached us in the parking lot of Lowe's....the man asked for any money we could spare so he could feed his kids. We were heading to McDonald's..asked them to follow, and we fed the whole family. We didn't know these people...will probably never see them again. I do prefer to give the food as opposed to the money to ensure it's not used for alcohol or drugs...but that doesn't mean I don't care about that person or their feelings.
I know that no one is perfect...we all have our shortcomings, but to bully, call names, tear people down...that is, actually, abuse! Yes....it's called emotional, verbal and mental abuse!!! So, I agree with you. I stand with you. I may not agree with someone's religious preferences, sexual orientation, method of dressing, etc, but that does not mean I have to tear that person down. I am a victim of verbal, emotional, mental (and yes, physical and sexual) abuse, so I do my best to NOT tear someone down. I try to live by the well known creed "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU" If I treat people how I wish to be treated, then people around me are going to be treated very well!!!
Thank you for taking a stand, for posting this blog.
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