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I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.

I promise you it doesn’t matter what you believe, how strongly you live your beliefs, or how true your beliefs are. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks you are in the wrong. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks your beliefs are senseless or illogical. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks you have it all wrong. In fact, there are a lot of people in this world who do.

We each understand that. We already know that. It’s the world we live in and we’re not naïve. We’re not stupid. We get it.

Yet, we expect and want love anyway. We expect and want understanding. We expect and want tolerance. We expect and want humanity. We expect and want respect for our beliefs, even from those who don’t believe the same things we do. Even from those who think we’re wrong, unwise, or incorrect.

We expect all of that from the people who disagree with us and who disagree with our lifestyles and beliefs because, let’s be honest, nothing we do is actually bad enough to be worthy of disgust, anger, hatred, or cold-shouldering. Right? None of the ways in which we live our lives would warrant such behavior. Right? None of our beliefs are worthy of ugly disdain from others.

Right?

No, we’re all… perfect. Freaking, amazingly, impossibly… perfect.

But the gays… well, shoot.

[sigh]

You know what I think?

Let this sink in for a minute…

I think it doesn’t matter if you or I or anybody else thinks homosexuality is a sin. It doesn’t matter if you or I think anything is a sin. It doesn’t matter if homosexuality is a sin or not. In fact, it doesn’t matter if anything anybody else does is a sin or not.

Because sin is a very personal thing! It always has been and it always will be!

And it has nothing to do with love.

Absolutely nothing.

Disparity and difference have nothing to do with love.

We shouldn’t choose who we will love and who we won’t.

“I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.”

That’s the message we’re sending, you know.

“I’m Christian, unless I’m hotter than you.”

“I’m Christian, unless I’m uglier than you.”

“I’m Christian, unless I found out you cheated on your income taxes.”

“I’m Christian, unless you cut me off in traffic.”

“I’m Christian, unless you fall in love with the person I once fell in love with.”

“I’m Christian, unless you’re that guy who smells like crap on the subway.”

“I’m Christian, unless you’re of a different religion.”

“Oh, but you’re not gay? You’re clean, and well dressed, and you have a job? You look the way I think you should look? You act the way I think you should act? You believe the things I think you should believe? Then I’m definitely a Christian. To you, today, I’m a Christian. You’ve earned it.”

I bet you’ve heard that message coming from others. Maybe you’ve given that message to others.

Either way, I hope we all can agree that we mustn’t live that message. We just shouldn’t.

But many of us do.

And we do it all the time.

For some of us, it might as well be tattooed across our necks and foreheads.

Maybe not in those words, but the message is clear to those who hear and are listening. It’s clear to those who are watching and seeing.

The message has been very clear to my friend Jacob.

“Every single person I’ve told has ditched me. They just disappear. They stop calling. They remove me on Facebook. They’re just gone. They can’t handle knowing and being friends with a gay person.”

“You don’t know what it’s like, man. You don’t know what it’s like to live here and be gay. You don’t know what it’s like to have freaking nobody. You don’t know what it’s like to have your own parents hate you and try and cover up your existence. I didn’t choose this. I didn’t want this. And I’m so tired of people hating me for it. I can’t take it anymore. I just can’t.”

Jacob is a dear friend. He’s my brother. He’s a damn good human being. He’s absolutely incredible.

He’s also gay.

But why does that make any difference at all?

It doesn’t. Not to me.

And I wish with everything inside of me that it didn’t make any difference to others. I wish we didn’t all have to find ways that we’re better than others or more holy and saintly than others in order to feel better about our own messy selves. I wish people wouldn’t cluster entire groups of people together and declare the whole lot unworthy of any love and respect.

But that is the point of such thinking and action, isn’t it? I mean, it’s simpler that way. It makes it easier for us to justify our thoughts, words, and prejudices that way.

All these people become clumped together. And in the process, they all somehow become less than human.

They become unworthy of our love.

And what a great thing it is when that happens, right? I mean, it helps us to free ourselves from the very directives that have been passed down for millennia from the greatest teachers and philosophers in history. It makes our rationalization for hatred, bigotry, and abhorrence so easily justifiable; so maskable.

So right.

It gives us the golden chance to look at ourselves and not be disgusted by what the glass reflects back at us.

Then, sadly and ultimately, it pushes us to that point where we no longer have any sort of arm to put around others at all. We no longer have a hand to offer our fellow human beings. We no longer have a need to.

And why would we?

Why the hell should we?

Unless, of course, we actually want to live what we all so often claim that we “believe.”

My dear friends…

This has to stop. We have to put our ugly picket signs down. We have to be the examples that help make it happen in our own lives and in the lives of the people that surround us.

We have to be that voice. We each must be that voice.

We must tell others that we will not accept or listen to such hurtful and hateful sentiments.

We must show love where love right now doesn’t exist.

Will you please join me?

My request today is simple. Today. Tomorrow. Next week. Find somebody, anybody, that’s different than you. Somebody that has made you feel ill-will or even [gulp...] hateful. Somebody whose life decisions have made you uncomfortable. Somebody who practices a different religion than you do. Somebody who has been lost to addiction. Somebody with a criminal past. Somebody who dresses “below” you. Somebody with disabilities. Somebody who lives an alternative lifestyle. Somebody without a home.

Somebody that you, until now, would always avoid, always look down on, and always be disgusted by.

Reach your arm out and put it around them.

And then, tell them they’re all right. Tell them they have a friend. Tell them you love them.

If you or I wanna make a change in this world, that’s where we’re gonna be able to do it. That’s where we’ll start.

Every. Single. Time.

Because what you’ll find, and I promise you this, is that the more you put your arm around those that you might naturally look down on, the more you will love yourself. And the more you love yourself, the less need you’ll ever have to find fault or be better than others.  And the less we all find fault or have a need to be better than others, the quicker this world becomes a far better place to live.

And don’t we all want to live in a better world? Don’t we all want our kids to grow up in a better, less hateful, more beautiful world?

I know I do.

So let’s be that voice. Let’s offer that arm to others. Because, the honest truth is… there’s gonna come a day when you or I are going to need that same courtesy. There’s going to come a day that we are desperate for that same arm to be put around us. We’ll be desperate for that same friendship. We’ll be desperate for that same love.

Life will make sure of it. For you. For me. For everyone.

It always does because… as it turns out… there’s not a damn person on earth who’s perfect.

Dan Pearce, Single Dad Laughing

PS. I would love your comments and thoughts today. More than anything, I’d really like to hear people’s individual struggles. I’d like to hear your struggles. I believe that everybody will benefit as we all share that which hurts us and haunts us.

When have you seen or experienced this? What effects has it had in your life or the lives of others that are close to you? Have you ever seen positive results as people become more loving toward those who are different? How have you felt along the way?

There are those who have struggled because they have been on the receiving end of it. And there are those who have struggled as they work to overcome it. I’ve grappled on both sides.

This message is so important to me; among the most important that this faulted blogger has ever written and because of that I have no hesitation asking you to share it. If it’s important to you, too, please share it. If you believe its message needs to be spread, please share it. Use your voice for that which it was meant.

Use your voice to embolden the world. Use your voice to say, “enough is enough.” Use your voice to stand up and declare that there is no other way besides love.

With all my heart. Please.

NOTE: Please use the like button here which will send people to page one instead of to page three. :)

Since publishing this last November, I have posted several follow-up posts that I would encourage you to read. Please take a moment to read them as I believe they’re 100 times more powerful than anything I could ever write.

23566 comments
NatashaMichael
NatashaMichael

I m Natashai lives in Texas and i was in a serious relationship with my Ex Guy for 3 good years.. One day we were in a dinner party, we had a little misunderstanding which lead to a Quarrel and he stood up and left me at the dinner party. i try to call him but he was not picking my calls so after than i contacted my brother and told him about it,my brother so much love me that he had to see him on my behalf,he told my brother that it is over between us.. Then i contacted a friend of mine that had this similar experience and she directed me to THE HIGH PRIEST OZIGIDIDON and i contacted him on [email protected], at first i thought it was not going to be possible and i contacted him i was ask to come up with a little requirement information of me and my Ex Guy,so i did what i was ask to do, after 24Hours after the spell was cast i was in my office when my Ex Guy called me and was asking me to forgive him and come back to him. i was very surprise it was like a dream to me,so ever since we have been happily married with one kid my lovely baby(Anita)...i wish you the best of luck... friends you can contact HIGH PRIEST OZIGIDIDON on his email, [email protected]  I know you will Thank me later

evesaldivar
evesaldivar

That was beautiful! It moved me to tears. It made me realize that even though I have tried to be this way there are still times I fall very short. With a nasty boss or rude customer. To be honest I don't honestly know if I will ever be able to love some people, people who have really hurt me, but I can work on it.


My mom is gay, and I must admit that I don't understand the attraction to women because I'm not gay. But I still love her, and support her and I love her partner as well. I can see how happy she makes my mom. 


People should be aware also that young gays are can be a very high suicide risk in situations like Jacobs, when family and friends reject you. They didn't choose to feel that way, ask yourself this, would you rather have a gay son or daughter or a dead son or daughter. Your rejection is not going to change what they are. I wish I could give Jacob a hug.



Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@NatashaMichael 

I wish you all the best. Just be on your guard that somebody doesn't reverse the spell at the worst possible moment. Since it isn't clear on what basis this spell was done, there is no way to know the strength or the duration of the spell. Hopefully you have a long and blessed life.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@evesaldivar 

The question of whether one should reject a person for who they are is simple. NO.

But the real question is what happens with anyone who rejects the love of Jesus.

At that time, when Jesus is the teacher of how to love and what love is, then life is the best it will ever be. Accepting or rejecting Jesus and His sacrificial love and the resurrection is the key to living.

fajitaknocks
fajitaknocks

@Tim Conley 

Tim,
The article is about precisely the opposite of what you talk about. He asked you to remove religion from the picture. Remove judgements and biases. Making little comments like the one you have is completely unnecessary. You won't make a believer out of anyone by riding in on some high horse talking about Jesus and how you won't experience life until you accept his love. Whatever the hell that means.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@fajitaknocks @Tim Conley 

Right on. I would hope talk of a relationship with Jesus is not the equal of religion. Just the opposite actually. The only judgment is looking at the produce coming from the heart through actions. God's love is to any one who accepts it. My mode of travel is walking or bicycle in the metaphor of meeting peoples needs. Ergo, when I see a need, I use any means given to me and meet that need. But I get why the confusion of love when not enough people show the love that God created. I used to be as confused as you until I found the answer and now it all makes sense. My words or actions are not only harmless but they have helped many who have considered the meaning and the application, and now you don't have to judge me either. I am only here to help with life and how to process issues with the love of Jesus.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @fajitaknocks Hey Tim,

You have been on here, saying these same things for over a year already, in some real or faux name and/or capacity and you still refuse to LISTEN. 


God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason...you are suppose to listen twice as much and hard as you talk...so be quiet and really listen for a change to what people have been  saying to you for over a year! 

The things you say( one mouth) are hurtful and are harming people!

DavidStevens
DavidStevens

@Tim Conley @fajitaknocks

Hi Tim, you have repeatedly insisted that your words are harmless, despite hearing from multiple LGBTQs and allies that in fact, your words do great harm. Allow me to share a story from my own life.


Some years ago, I was talking with a friend who is a man of color. I was speaking of a certain white artist's use of the n-word. I said something to the effect of, "He's using it as a term of respect, so it's okay." 


My patient, loving friend told me (in a respectful tone, in a voice tense with suppressed anger) that despite the artist's intent, his use of the word was still inappropriate, and that for any white person to think that they can be justified in using that word displays a profound ignorance of history.


Finally, I got it. I understood that it simply was not okay for me to use that word, no matter what my intention. I won't even say it if I'm rapping along with a song. It is off limits, period.


Tim, your declaration that same-sex love is against God's law is a harmful declaration. Now and forever. Stop it, man.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

I do listen. I listen to all sorts of people. People in person, people on this forum, people in authority. The ONE person that I listen to most is Jesus and after Him then his disciples.


Actually, most everyone has the same accessories that you described and I have taken in all of what was said with humility and I appreciate all of your thoughts. However, when all has been said and done, it has to make sense with God's word and the common sense that I assume everyone has, (at least to begin with).


I don't recall saying anything that isn't in the Bible. But I say it in my own words as much as I can. I haven't made any of my beliefs up with my imagination or my feelings. Nobody has refuted what I have said. So it must be true. If anyone is hurt by the truth, I am sorry for that. The truth I speak of is not from spite or hate, it is on the basis of love for the soul. That love is the kind of love that lasts.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

Great story. I see what you are talking about. However, the problem is not that simple with God. God is the only provider of truth and love. I know it is hard to accept truth with love, I used to be there myself. That's why I don't mince words or say what someone wants to hear. The story about the 'n' word is worth something but not in this context. The 'n' word has such negatives attached and it isn't necessary to use it anyways. Apparently, some people equate truth that goes against their beliefs as hate. If so then that is really sad. However, the truth is going to set them free of any sadness IF the truth is comprehended and accepted for what it is.

The way out of the paths leading to depression and death is to look to the one who conquered death. That is the true meaning of love, an innocent man dying for the guilty.

Same sex 'love', or any 'love' that is of this world is not love at all. It is a person fulfilling their flesh in lust. It is hard to hear this, and it is not going to be silenced simply because I stop saying it. The man paying for pleasure is the same sin as same sex 'love'. Anyone in an affair is the same sin of lust. Jesus said "Anyone who looks at a woman for pleasure is guilty of lust". Playboy, Hustler and Planned Parenthood make billions from lust. Jesus also said "The way into a relationship with God is straight and narrow and few there be who find it. That is the truth and no one can make it into something someone wants to hear.

SwissJon
SwissJon

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks  Hmmm... I've been looking on this thread for a while now, recently I've been reticent to say anything because I feel that with Tim, I'm flogging a dead horse, but allow me to interject.

It is written, in every version of the bible I know of, in every language "God is Love".. This isn't a euphemism, it's not code for something, it's stated as a clear and simple fact. "God is love, and if you do not know love, you do not know God."

Now the love of God here is all encompassing, it has to be, God sent his only son to die, knowing that it was the only way for you and I to understand the depths of Love that God has for us, it's all encompassing. God didn't send his only son to die for you as long as you aren't gay, he sent his only son to die for EVERYONE.

So.. There are no limits to Gods love.

Homosexuality is not something that people choose, otherwise you would also state that heterosexuality is a choice, and I really don't make any choices over whom I am attracted to, nor do you, so why would you say it's different for someone else, just because they're different to you.. Would you also state that someone who has blonde hair should dye their hair brown because the majority of people have brown hair?


To then state that God will punish you for BEING gay would be to state that God will punish you for being blonde. God made you blonde, and God made you straight or gay. To then go and punish you for being something that God made you would be unjust, and almost everywhere in the bible, it says God is a just God.. How can something that is love be anything other than just?

Quite simply, God doesn't care if you're straight or not, white or not, God made you that way, so God loves you that way.


Come on Tim, get your head out of the bucket and open your heart to what is real, God loves people for being true to themselves.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @kathleen z @fajitaknocks Really Tim? Because you are not listening AT ALL to Christ. He specifically told you to , " Love God with your whole heart and soul, To love your neighbors as you love yourself and not to judge. He told you these were the two most important commandments.

We aren't getting the love part Tim. And please don't give me another dissertation about how none of us know what "real love" is, which BTW was another one of the many judgements you've thrown at people here.

Many of us here have refuted what you've said, you just haven't been listening......two ears Tim, two ears.


We have tried many, many, many times to no avail. You can think and believe anything you want Tim but when people ask you, repeatedly, to stop and you don't and we say you are hurting people, well that is the exact opposite of loving.


So I'll leave you with yet another oldie but goodie....

"If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all"


If you feel the constant need to get confirmation and ego boosting on your understanding/prowess/delivery of scripture or what a true follower/believer in Christ you are, you should probably go to a site where they have the same convoluted understanding and belief of Christ that you do. They are out there Tim, go find them

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks

This line of yours Tim, "That is the true meaning of love, an innocent man dying for the guilty."


I agree that is the true meaning of the unconditional love the Father has for ALL of his children, and yet you cannot even show a speck of that loving heart and spirit and stop saying harmful, hurtful things, when repeatedly asked.


It sounds very much that you are only seeing love in one aspect, sexually, because that is exactly what you say, " Same sex 'love', or any 'love' that is of this world is not love at all. It is a person fulfilling their flesh in lust." 


And I know I've mentioned this to you before, that you only seem to focus on the sexually aspect. Real love, as you like to term it, has nothing to do with sex, sex can and does become a part of some real loving relationships, but we all know they aren't based solely on sex. You see one thing, that any sexually misconduct, ( I use the term misconduct for how you see it) is sin, you miss completely the possible reasons for such " misconduct". The pain and suffering someone might be experiencing that is causing the misconduct. 

DavidStevens
DavidStevens

@Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks


Clearly, Tim, I have failed you. My communication skills are unable to penetrate the hardened shell of your world view.


I'm sorry, brother, I have tried. I have given it my best effort. I will continue to pray that somehow you will learn this lesson before you do more harm, clearly this one is out of my league.


Peace to you.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@SwissJon @DavidStevens @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

You are correct in saying that God is love and God's love is all encompassing.

You believe God made certain people straight and other people homosexual. I don't believe that because it doesn't make sense. You do in fact make choices of who you are attracted to. The color of hair is rather a shallow choice and that might be the problem. God knows the inner most part of our being and that is what is most important. God's love is based on how we handle temptation. A relationship with God is dependent on being us seeking the truth. God sent His son because He wanted to reach out to us since we couldn't reach out to God without the Holy Spirit to guide us.

The part you are missing is about making so much of your lifestyle. The Bible also states that God's love leads one to righteousness. The meaning of that is that the flesh is the problem. If one is to connect with God then the Holy Spirit is the guide, not the flesh. By making the pleasure of the flesh important then the Holy Spirit is out of that life.

God doesn't punish anyone, unless not having a relationship with God in heaven is punishment. You make that choice.

You are also correct to say it doesn't matter what a persons sin is, if any part of this world, this life or possessions, then that sin might be more important than God's righteousness. If so then God's love is limited by choices made which lead to limited faith.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

I have two ears and two eyes. The distinction between us is how we see the words of Jesus. Yes, Jesus did say those were the two most important commandments. Following that is the application of those commandments. You seem to have this thing about love is not recognized if it is different than what you are expecting. There is a standard and I use the Bible as my standard. If you want to discuss other verses that connect with the few that you already know, fine. If you only want to stay with what you have now, I get that but I can't stay there with you. My thing is to keep expanding my knowledge of God and to seek God until God's will and my will the same. That means the whole Bible has to be used, not only the parts that support your pretext. If your pretext is your version of refuting my words, I am sorry but that is not going to make it.


Also, your oldie saying is a good one to remember except when one is seeking the truth.


I have none, zero of the needs you mentioned. My only motive is God's love to be expressed in truth which came from Jesus's words or those of the apostles, which Jesus appointed. If you want to think of the straight and narrow that Jesus taught is hate or convoluted, I am sorry but that is not correct.

SwissJon
SwissJon

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks  Of course Tim will disagree with EVERYTHING you say Kathleen. He's not here to understand how other people experience the love of God, he's here to force his point of view on others.

Here's the reality of this situation.. Tim won't change his mind about anything, not because he can't see what you're saying or anything like that, but because he's afraid to admit that he may have got it wrong.. So far, since I've been a part of this thread, I've not experienced one occasion when he's even slightly adjusted his point of view.. He's not willing to look at the broad spectrum of people in this world, with different experiences of God.. If you don't experience God in EXACTLY the way he thinks he has, then you are wrong..

I have to say, that sounds like the workings of a sect.. Or to put it in Tims words, the devil.


I've tried, I really have, so have many people in this forum, but when someone do desperately needs to put God into his box, there comes a point where you have to say.. You're lost to us.. I cannot force you to see the error in your ways if you're so afraid to let go of what you think you know.

My personal opinion on this is as follows.. IF what Tim believes to be true turned out to be so, I would be happy to have turned my back on that and found the God of Love and kindness instead. But I cannot believe it to be true, there are so many contradictions in Tims opinions that the convoluted path he thinks he's following is just lost between the words and the actions.

I will continue to do what I believe to be the right thing.. I will avoid judging people for their lifestyles, since that's not my place.. Including Tim.. He has a right to live his life the way he choses, just not the right to force people in the way he's trying to do.. There's seven billion people in the world. I'm doing my best to help the ones who need my help, as I'm sure you are, so, for now, I will turn my back on Tim and leave him to study his book. One day he may choose to look outside that book and find God in the real world.. When he does, I will welcome him with open arms.

Sorry Tim, I've nothing more I can say to you. 

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks 

It is hard to see how the truth that Jesus taught and I refer to can be hurtful. To say words that make you into a inferior, fragile person that can't handle the truth would be hurtful. To say words that soothe the feelings but lead to destruction would be hurtful.


Apparently, it's only love if it connects with you with the words that you accept. If you don't see/hear the words of your choosing then it automatically is hate. You don't ever refute the words used without attacking the person who said them.


You are the one who is focused on the sexual aspect. I have included the concept of following Jesus and the disciples. They taught much more than sex. "The pain and suffering someone might be experiencing that is causing the misconduct." Nowhere is this concept found in the Bible. Pain and suffering is dealt with in the context of sin. Jesus is the one to heal the pain and suffering. The misconduct is not of any consequence when sin is removed by obeying Jesus's teachings and following Jesus on the straight and narrow pathway that He lived when he was here.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

My 'world view'??? Everybody has a world view but is that what was got from our discussion? It really is much more than a world view. For me it has to do with God's view.


Just curious.....you are praying to who? Under what auspices? It would appear to me that you only believe in Jesus Christ as one to reinforce your world view rather than look at ALL of Jesus's teachings for wisdom, guidance and prophecy.

SwissJon
SwissJon

@Tim Conley @SwissJon @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks Here we go again...That's a very simplistic analysis of attraction Tim.. 

Attraction is not a conscious decision, I don't say "She's got blonde hair, therefore I'm attracted to her"..  I can't explain what made me choose my wife over the other 3.5 billion women in the world, I simply found her attractive. If she'd been a man, but all the other qualities about her were the same, I wouldn't be attracted, that defines me as heterosexual. A person who is homosexual would find the opposite to be true. Don't you see, that isn't something I've made a choice over, I've simply chosen not to be in a relationship with someone who I don't find attractive. I "could" be in a relationship with a man, but it wouldn't feel right, not because I don't like men, but because I don't find men attractive. The opposite is also true of a gay man.. He could be in a relationship with a woman, but he wouldn't find her attractive. Would that be fair? for either party?

A relationship with God is "dependant".... ARRGH! How can Gods love be all encompassing and limitless when it is "dependant" on something?? The two are mutually incompatible.

If "the flesh is the problem" then what does it matter what your sexuality is? Surely that's simply a function of the flesh?? You're referring to "original Sin" I guess? What's that got to do with who you're attracted to? Being gay is no more or less sinful than being straight..

It also means that ANYONE, no matter what their sexuality can have a relationship with God, and YOU, a mere mortal have no right to tell someone based on something like sexuality that you yourself have (And have admitted to denying, at least at some stage of your life, if that stage is not right now.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @kathleen z @fajitaknocks Yes you have two ears and two eyes which you refuse to use, and one giant mouth which never closes long enough to hear anything anyone has said to you. I use the same few verses, not because I don't know more but because I hope against hope that maybe those verses will be straight forward enough to accommodate your simple understanding.

I never once said that Jesus' straight and narrow is hate or convoluted, I said yours was. You have the ability to take the loving words, actions and immense love of Christ for ALL his children and twist it into something mean, hurtful and damaging. So if, as you keep claiming, this is not your intent, but this is what we all are still getting from you, you have to admit something is amiss. The one common denominator here is you because no one here has said they feel that from Christ's words, only yours...the way in which you twist ( from your convoluted understanding of them) Christ's loving words.


So again I urge you to step outside of that box you have yourself bound in and look to others who have a much greater understanding of the scriptures, the world in which we all live, science ( these are not mutually exclusive) and the great love of Christ. Until then I agree with SwissJon that you are lost.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@SwissJon @kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks So very true SwissJon, and I agree with you 100%. It's just my nature, (which is sometimes a hindrance) to not give up. I still have some learning to do of my own.  As when to say, " I've done all I can do" and be done. 


I have a hard time accepting that anyone can not see just plain old common sense, I feel that I must be lacking in some way, that if I just say this thing or that in another way then they will get it. Because in this case, it really is just common sense. If God SO loved the WORLD that he gave his son, ( and in the most horrific, torturous way) to save us all, that means US ALL, there were no exclusions. So I feel that I am just not saying it in a way that this concept is understood. 


But I do this with most everything, everyone, and for as long as I can remember as well. I'm still trying to decide if this is my gift or my curse, this never giving up, it's my delivery thing, today it feels like a curse, LOL.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@SwissJon @kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

I don't see or hear many, if any, changing either. The only reason I haven't changed is because I follow Jesus. It is not my point of view since I used to be where you are and I did change to meet up with Jesus and the apostles.

You can claim anything you wish to about my words but that is a compliment since my standard is the Bible, which are all from Jesus through the Holy Spirit. It is not about what I think or what I know unless Jesus makes the connection.

You say I have many contradictions. That is possible and if it is a fact that I have even one contradictions, I would be glad to correct it and make it right. I have not claimed to be perfect.

God is in the real world to the extent that people believe on Jesus Christ and people pray to, follow and obey.

I trust you will be straight up and honest enough to point out where I have had any contradictory words. 

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @kathleen z @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks Again you miss the boat on every level Tim. 

The "misconduct" that I refer to I only use that term for you. I don't see it as misconduct at all, I see it as the pain and suffering that someone may be experiencing that causes them to look in all the wrong places, so to speak. And what you call "sin" and say that the pain and suffering is removed by obeying Jesus' teachings and the "straight and narrow" path is the problem. First you have to know the person, their life experience and how they think, feel and believe about THEMSELVES. 


Do you not get that until you get to the root of the pain someone is experiencing that nothing will change for them? If they are feeling unworthy, unlovable, inadequate in some way they will not believe or feel that even Christ could love them, especially (maybe) Christ could love them. And I certainly don't claim that this is true for everyone but you seem to think it is like some magic pill. You can't change a person's view of themselves by just telling them....Just believe Christ loves you and follow all his teachings and you'll be fine, without changing their view (that they may have felt for their entire life) of themselves, and that only comes with listening, trying to understand, empathy, and helping them to start changing the way in which they see and feel about themselves. Only then can the acceptance and belief that Christ or anyone else can and does love them  will come.

DavidStevens
DavidStevens

@Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks

And here Tim, once again, is your arrogance. Yes, you have a world view. It is informed by your experience of God through Christianity, but it is yours alone. Own it, dude. Anything else is dishonest.


I'm not a Christian, haven't been since my teens. I recognize Jesus as an enlightened master, but not the only one.


I pray to God, The Great Spirit, Buddha Nature, The Goddess, or whatever else human's have chosen to call that ineffable force which animates us all and makes life possible. I know that my understanding of this force is profoundly limited and is mine alone.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@SwissJon @Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks 

I disagree that attraction is not a conscious decision. Of course there are many steps to arriving at any relational decision. I am rather offended by the idea that my relationship with anyone would be by chance or some other means where I wouldn't be able to either opt out or to ensure it happening. To be at the whim of nature would be on the same level as some animal. I can list each and every reason for choosing my wife. As for the fairness of a homosexual person in a heterosexual relationship, that has many mitigating factors.


Gods love is all encompassing and limitless but the dependency is from our limited comprehension. It's like the limits of any airborne craft. Some people are quite satisfied with a model airplane experience, with the handler being firmly standing on the ground. Some other people are less limited by riding in a balloon or a blimp. Still others want to be more in control by hangliding. The point is that, in reality we choose our own path and our own limitations, whether we know of our own life choices or not.


"Being gay is no more or less sinful than being straight.." This is true. However, being straight is not without sin either. There is many paths that lead to destruction. Only one path is with Jesus. That path is straight and narrow and few people find it. It takes much effort to seek the truth and rejecting many distractions and errors.


Sexuality is only one among many ways to sin and not have a relationship with God, who is righteous and holy. Jesus Christ was the only perfect man to live a life on this earth and aside from following Jesus, there is no hope. I am not saying this except by repeating what I have read in the Bible. I don't live by being sexual (even though I am in a loving relationship and do enjoy that), I live by knowing Jesus and living by His precepts, teachings and examples. In other words, being sexual is secondary to anything God wills for my life. It is not about what I can do, it is about obedience to God because I know how much God loves and cares for me. 

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

I won't argue with you nor will I trade insults. It's ok if you choose to use any verse you wish, that is not my call. My understanding of the Bible is like a tripod. One verse alone will be easy to understand, but three verses that say similar points in slightly different words are easier still to understand and difficult to knock down. If you wish, I could get as many verses to discuss as you would like.


Jesus's straight and narrow is also my straight and narrow, unless you can refute that, that statement is true.

The next sentence is your judgment to make. Does not make it true simply by your saying it. If words are hurtful, it could be the receiver of those words has a problem. I haven't seen anything but accusations that it is as you claim.

My words are NOT Christ's words, however, they do come from Jesus Christ's teachings or those of the apostles.

If my words are twisted and convoluted, I will take correction. It has to be real correction that has an actual foundation, rather than vague phrases or words to make someone feel good.


You can make your claims and I can make my claims. You claim I am in a box, and from your viewpoint it may look that way. From where I am and looking at where I came from, I WAS in a box. But now I am free because of what Jesus did for me.

You can agree with whom ever you want. Agree with everyone, if you want. Even if the whole world THINKS I am lost, that is not anything compared to God's wisdom, strength and plan. Besides, I am one among many that have a foundation for what we believe.

Ono
Ono

@kathleen z  and @SwissJon I believe what happens with those who are so rigid in their beliefs that they become fanatical, cold, and closed down, and what they say about others is a projection of what they loathe in themselves. When I read Tim's words, I can see how shut down he is and that makes me feel sad for him. All I can do is pray that something will give him a jolt, that makes him "feel the love of God"--get him out of his head and into his heart. We've watched him desperately waffle all over the place. He can't even define God's love, we've witnessed him change the meanings of scriptures when backed into a corner. 


I think what Tim needs is loving kindness, a lot of it. His self loathing needs to be broken into and he desperately needs to heal from his own hatred. I wish I could help him, but only he can decide to do the work and let God help him heal from his own hatred that he projects outwardly to others. I know that Tim will be reading this, but I am not saying this for his benefit, but for ours. Tim behaves like an unfeeling robot, because he is closed down. All I can do is pray that his heart will be opened one day, and I hope he does. People can change, and realize their own crap, and most of it comes from not loving themselves. God becomes the excuse to keep them there, instead of God being the vehicle to deliver them out of their self-made hell. I know this because I've been there myself, I know the despair. And have been surrounded by dysfunctional Christians that desperately need God's healing. 

I had to do a lot of work, God didn't hand the healing on a silver platter. I had to walk to places in my head and heart I didn't want to go, I had so much fear. Yet he was there guiding me gently, when I had to work through the pain and the anger and the issues of abuse that life gave me. I am still a work in progress, and would love to reach out to Tim, I don't know if I have the wisdom to help him. And until he makes a step out of what is binding him, no one can reach him, not even God. However, I think God will do the work necessary, give him the right teachers if he opens his heart. I can't say for sure, I don't know the mind of God, and I don't know what has happened to Tim to make him have so much pain that has shut him down emotionally. All I can do is hope and pray that he will be able to work his way out of it and find God's joy in this lifetime.


So anyone that has read posts such as Tim's should realize that if you're gay and they are putting you down for it, this is about the person's unhappiness, not about your sexuality. They will find anything to pin on another so as not to look at themselves. And usually what they loathe in themselves is what they complain about in another. And if we can find compassion for their pain, realizing it is a projection of what they are feeling, their words can no longer hurt anyone, and that is a place of healing for ourselves too. 

That I believe is one of the things Christ was teaching us. Why he called on us to love and not judge. Because judgement of another is just a projection of our own heart. If we love one another as we love ourselves, well don't we need to love ourselves first as God loves us? And when we love ourselves the judgement falls away.

SwissJon
SwissJon

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks  So, once again we are in the situation where someone contradicts themselves in a single post.. "The distinction between us is how we see the words of Jesus" meaning that Tim admits to "seeing" the words differently from yourself or I.


"My only motive is God's love to be expressed in truth which came from Jesus's words or those of the apostles, which Jesus appointed." Yet he's already admitted that this truth is different for each person looking at those words.

Yet in a previous post we have "It is not my point of view....." and "I used to be where you are and I did change... " So, apparently he's been travelling around Asia, Africa and South America assisting people who are struggling with their lives (I'm currently in Bolivia) and it's led you to be like this? I doubt that, very much..

There is NOTHING in Tims words that convinces me he holds the only truth, in fact, I'm fairly convinced, given the contradictions, he doesn't know clearly what is being asked for from Jesus, yet he clearly believes he does, and is the only one that knows God on this thread. The stronger we object to his viewpoint, the more convinced he becomes that he is the holder of the truth.


So I say to you this Tim, for the last time.. Jesus spent time among people. He spent his life, not in a synagogue among the religious zealots of the time. You are in danger of becoming a zealot, if you are not already. Put your bible down, you already know the scriptures, and go out there into the world and show people love as Christ did. 


I have worked with prostitutes and drug takers, orphans and other people who are lost to the world. With Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Atheists, and many others, in equal partnership. I make no judgement on what someone "is", only that they work with me with an open heart. But you're exhausting, your heart is so closed, you think you feel the love of God, but from the outside your words seem so cold and empty and meaningless. You repeat Christ's words in an order that suits you without understanding the key messages that you are given.

I'm tired of this Tim. I'm tired of listening to your strange judgemental world you surround yourself with, I'm tired of being polite to you. I am not God, I do my best, but I am not God, and my patience has run out.

You believe you follow Jesus and understand the words, yet I believe I follow Jesus, and understand the meaning of those words as they are applied to the real world. This is so much different to the meaning that you put forth, I have seen with my own eyes children with no food and water, with bellies inflated from malnutrition, and never once asked if the people I was working with were Christians, it made no difference, the actions of those people were Christian enough for me. God is not limited to a book, God is found through action not words.

Please Tim, stop preaching such a hateful, insulting interpretation of Gods words.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks 

Your standards are relative to this world but could you explain how your standards relate to God or His standards? Please use terms from some translation of the Bible to explain how  First you have to know the person, their life experience and how they think, feel and believe about THEMSELVES. I am certain YOU know you are right but that might change with the next high tide or hurricane storm.


The root of someones pain is relative to some action they took or a relationship with someone who decided to act on some belief of theirs. If a person decides to not take a lifeline thrown to them, that is their choice. If a person can hear the whole message of Jesus's life, ministry, sacrifice and resurrection, that is their choice but it is the truth that God sent for ALL mankind. The life changing experience comes from God, not me. I can minister to any outward expression or need but it takes the Holy Spirit to direct me and heal the heart. In fact the Holy Spirit can use anyone or any object to heal the hurt regardless of how deep or severe it might be. This is way more, much more than any "magic pill". I am pointing to the living God, creator of the world. The ONLY God there ever was, is or ever will be. This living God knows more about any person than they know about themselves. Nothing else compares and God is ALWAYS the same for everyone, from eons before Jesus and for all time in the future.

If one chooses not to believe then they have to take that up with God. It doesn't do any good to argue with me since I am on the same level as everyone else on this planet. I didn't write the Bible, nor do I understand all of it. What I do know is that I am getting closer to Jesus all the time. And, Yes, I am rigid in my belief until someone can show me, with scripture, where I need to change. Just reiterating how I am making everyone miserable, how I am hurting people, how I need to show love, all these are relativism pertaining to how the world thinks. It will never have any bearing on my belief.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

I am not going to get into a God volley. My God is the creator of the world, the universe. There is no other God. Never has been nor will there ever be any other living God. This is not arrogance at all. It is acknowledging who God is and what His attributes are. They are all clearly spelled out for all to read.


I do own my world view. But it is NOT only from my experience. It is a world view that is from the beginning of time that will last until the new world is created.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @kathleen z @fajitaknocks I can't anymore, I know I've said this before, but I'm learning my lesson, finally.


You believe whatever you want Tim, and if you truly want to help and bring people the love and peace Christ has to offer how about just saying that. That Christ has infinite love, peace and serenity to offer, and leave it at that, instead of pointing out all the ways in which someone is lacking.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@Ono @kathleen z @SwissJon 

Why he called on us to love and not judge. Because judgement of another is just a projection of our own heart. If we love one another as we love ourselves, well don't we need to love ourselves first as God loves us?

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@Ono @kathleen z @SwissJon 

Could it possibly be the hearer or the reader that is missing some meaning of what they might otherwise understand? Just maybe.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Ono @kathleen z @SwissJon Yes Ono!! More or less what I was saying as well. We cannot love ourselves so we cannot believe anyone else, including Christ, could love us, until we do the work as to why we feel unworthy, unlovable in the first place, and that is exactly when we can truly feel Christ's and anyone else's love and judgment most certainly falls away!


Love that, BTW. 


Thank you Ono for your loving heart 


Tiffani
Tiffani

@Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks Tim, I think David's just trying to get you to own the fact that you have a particular lens through which you see the world (i.e., a worldview) just like everyone else does. I get the impression that you think your particular lens is wholly infallible because it isn't yours at all, but God's.


You're human, and your very human worldview is flawed, just as mine is. To argue for anything else is to make God in your own image. 

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

I will be happy to speak to the hope, love, peace, mercy, grace, wisdom and healing of Jesus. That is what most of the Bible is about. I would be dishonest and irresponsible if I didn't mention the other side of the coin. The rest of the story.

The truth is important because otherwise, none of the benefits are possible. Oh, sure people get some benefits anyways. But to be consistent, the truth is like what wraps it all into a neat package that is really, really, really cool. It's kind of like getting a gift and not noticing any of the wrapping or the name on the tag of who it is from. If I got a gift from someone that has told me lies and tricked me and did all kinds of nasty things to me, I would refuse that gift. However, if the tag said it was from a one who was known to love and care, then I would take as much skill and care as possible in opening that package so as not to damage anything. The point is, truth ties all the other gifts into one package that is easy to recognize and enjoy. Without the truth holding it all together, none of the gifts make any sense. In fact the reality is like many times the gifts are not recognized for what they are.

You are so right in some of what you say. If only it was balanced with the rest of the story. One has to take the bad with the good when it comes through the Bible from God. Especially when there is more good than bad.

SwissJon
SwissJon

@Tim Conley @Ono @kathleen z @SwissJon  I think that is about the first realistic thing you have said in a long time Tim.. I wonder though whether you would apply that to yourself, or whether you only think it applies to others who don't share your opinions?


SwissJon
SwissJon

@Tim Conley @SwissJon @kathleen z @fajitaknocks  So how can you talk of the love of God when you cannot allow others to find comfort in their relationship with God, Tim?


You have been hurt, by the sound of it, but that's not a reason to hurt others, it's an excuse, you choose to use God as a way to make you feel better by making others feel worse.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm doing the same, but I'm holding up a mirror to you.. If you manage to become without sin, then go and cast the stone, but until that time, you can lead your life of sin, as we all do, and find a way to make the world a better place without your judgements. You are not God, you have no place in this world to make judgements, least of all upon yourself.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

I believe most people would say that learning anything from history could be included in their world view without them experiencing it. I know I have read or heard various people relating their world view and I have incorporated that into my world view without actually experiencing it.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@Tiffani @Tim Conley @DavidStevens @fajitaknocks 

You are so right on. However, the truth I have been talking about has nothing to do with my world view but everything to do with my belief system. My world view is what I am trying to replace with Jesus since His world view is perfect and mine is not.


I realize that I am fallible and God is not fallible, nor will God ever be since He is the only one to create a world and I intend to live by His teachings and example even though I know I will still fail if it depends on my world view.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @kathleen z @fajitaknocks I'm happy to hear this Tim, and I agree I wouldn't be opening a gift from someone who lied, tricked and did nasty things to me either.


What I believe we have all been trying to say Tim is, for the most part, what you just said. The difference, for me at least, is that I take and use the bible for what it is....the inspired word of God, still written, translated, interpreted by men...all fallible, all with their own bias. I see, feel and believe God to be limitless in his love and devotion to us humans that he presents himself in many different ways, each with the same purpose, to bring us closer to him. I believe that God's infinite wisdom about how, what and why we humans tick is the reason for different religions, all get us to the same point just down a different road, all began at a particular time and place that that was exactly what people needed. He made us all unique and different why would we think that he would only present himself to us in a "one size fits all" kind of way?I certainly don't think he would, I believe he would design many ways in which we all can come to him.


All I'm saying, we are saying, is what you just said,( a gift from a tricking, nasty liar), no one is drawn nearer with negative, whether you think it is truth or not. It is not showing the great unconditional love, compassion and awesomeness of Christ when you start condemning people ( and saying he is doing the same), which you have no right to do, you have no business deciding for God who he accepts or what his plan is for that particular person. His love for us is already,(always has been) there, it's up to us to see, feel, find and accept it...stop getting in the way of people doing that, please!


Tell them of how his great love has always been there, how he knew each and every one of us before we were even born, how he will love us unconditionally no matter what, how his love will never leave us and even when we may stumble and fall he will always be there to help us back up, with open loving arms, even if we stumble and fall many times. That his love is limitless. And even then, if someone asks you to stop, STOP, your work is done, you have planted the seed, let God do the watering, pruning and caring for that seed, it is his after all.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@SwissJon @Tim Conley @Ono @kathleen z 

I apply that to myself every time I read the Bible or hear any message about/from the Bible.


I don't have a problem with changing my belief or my life when a clear message of what should be changed and why. The truth does that for honest people and that is how I arrived at the place where I am currently.


I love God, God loves me. I am spreading God's love by telling the truth as Jesus did. No body can refute that. Attacking me is not a refutation regardless of how many people think alike in their group. The truth will always stand on its own merits.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@SwissJon @Tim Conley @kathleen z @fajitaknocks 

Do you have any proof of me not allowing "others to find comfort in their relationship with God"? I have presented the truth and you don't respond to that.


I have been healed of my pain and suffering. I actually learned more from that than I could have learned from any other experience. The reason others feel worse is not from the truth because hearing the truth doesn't have those results.


Finally, I am not making judgments. My words are from Jesus or one of the disciples. I change some words and make the message my own but it is based on Jesus or the disciples message. You can't attack Jesus directly so you attack someone delivering the same truth. It doesn't affect me except it is sad when the truth is dismissed and people keep living according to their own principles, or lack thereof.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

Is the truth of any value here? I could respond in ways that should be regarded as love and truth but for some reason it is taken for what it is not meant to be.

If God meant for us to all be different, on different paths, then Jesus would not have said anything about finding a narrow path and few would find it. He didn't say anything about many paths except that many people would find the broad way. Jesus also said that He was the way, He was the light of the world, He was the bread of life, He was the water of life. In other words, Jesus is THE ONE to follow and obey. That doesn't sound like one size fits all. That sounds like Jesus is what every body needs and He should know when He is the one to create us.

So now you equate a gift from a tricking, nasty liar with the truth? or at least what I think is the truth? Again, if it were my words, your opposition would make sense. Don't believe the words from Jesus if you don't want to, or you believe they mean something than what was meant. All I do is read the Bible and try to live by the words as the Holy Spirit leads me. Maybe it would be better just to quote the verses, but you have already said you believe they are only the words from people like you and me.

The words of Jesus are never to be stopped. To take your last analogy, the watering and pruning and caring is to be done by each one of us for each one of us. Of course, God does work behind the scene at times. But that does not mean we stop nurturing our fellow brothers and sisters as opportunity presents.

Finally, I never have condemned anyone. We all have the choice to be what God wants us to be. To condemn would mean that I was deciding for them and I am not.

SwissJon
SwissJon

@Tim Conley @SwissJon @Ono @kathleen z  No Tim, you aren't, you are driving people from God. You are no more doing Gods service than the self-serving evangelists who promise on TV miracles if you just donate $10 to their pockets. You twist the truth and close Gods words by making them inaccessible to anyone. You've never once stopped to consider that God may be talking to you through those people who "think alike in their group".. Those people who are Christians in their thoughts and deeds and not just because they can read.


People with attitudes like yours are the cause of the decline in Christianity in this world, and you don't care because you enjoy the exclusivity, and it's THAT selfishness which is proof enough for me that your "Christianity" is what Christ came to this earth to remove, the Zealots would be proud of you.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @Tiffani @fajitaknocks 

A world view is how I deal with the world. The world and myself is limited by my five senses. Of course it includes my imagination and experiences but I can't relate to any of it until one or more of my five senses is aware. For instance, I can do mind altering drugs, alcohol or any other mind altering phenomenon. But until it affects my hearing, feel, sight smell and/or taste then my world view stays the same. I can think of something within or beyond my limited world.

A belief system is my trust in the living God, the creator of the universe. Belief has nothing at all to do with the world. I believe in Jesus to bridge the chasm between me, being mortal and sinful, and God who is Holy, righteous, and the source of love, all enlightenment and wisdom.


That is the long version. The short version is my world view is physical. My belief system is spiritual or at least leads to a spiritual world.

kathleen z
kathleen z

@Tim Conley @kathleen z @fajitaknocks Well first, couldn't Christ/God/ go by any name, at any given time? Couldn't he be all of these, from all religions, presenting himself at the time and place and in the way that was needed and where it was needed? Of course he could.


And I'm sorry I believe God is always doing work and we only think it is behind the scenes.I believe he never stops working, in us, through us and for us, all! And I never said we shouldn't be nurturing, what I said was when a fellow brother or sister, one of your fellow humans, one of God's children, tells you you aren't be nurturing you should stop and let him take it from there. He will know where they need to be and when they need to be there, certainly far better than you or I will.


And lastly, from where we are all sitting, you have exactly done the deciding for us and deciding who is the recipient of God's love, and you have repeatedly let us know where, what, when and how we all are lacking. 


P.S. The gift analogy was yours not mine, I was just agreeing that I wouldn't feel secure receiving a gift from a tricky, nasty liar.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@SwissJon @Tim Conley @Ono @kathleen z 

Thank you for pointing out that I am driving people from God. They are not any more distant from God than when they were born. Unless you have proof, that is what you want to believe. I never ask for money and if I got any from someone, somehow or if I was forced to take money, I would give it back or otherwise get rid of it as fast as I could. You SAY I twist the truth but that is as far as it gets to what is real. You don't know one thing of what if I consider or don't consider. As for me, if it doesn't make scriptural connection then it is irrelevant. Scriptural reference is the real time guide for all Christians.


The rest of your posting is more of the same. It looks/sounds like you don't agree and that is the cause of the attack. When I disagree with someone, I try to make connection with them through some common ground. Again, this would be some scripture, any scripture rather than personal attacks.


It's not the scripture words alone that are important. The only important thing is the Holy Spirit using scripture to speak to ones soul, their spirit. I am sorry I have failed in this regard, but if I used scripture in any way, you would be offended at that also. The only way to connect with some people is to give them what they want, agree so they won't have any bad experience, make their world so peaceful they won't have any choice but to be happy. That's not me.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@kathleen z @Tim Conley @fajitaknocks 

Good question, but no, God has many names from Jewish tradition. But to have a name from some other source it would be confusing and God is not the author of confusion. First thought is how Jesus is exclusively the only path to get to heaven after one dies. No other religion has Holiness as part of their beliefs. Many other attributes apply also, if you want the whole list. All other religions are seeking and reaching out for a god, but the only god they will find is one made up from a mortal imagination.

Why are you sorry? It is true about God working behind the scenes.

It is rather curious as to why someone would not see nurturing in truth as it is presented from Jesus. Everything about Jesus's life and resurrection is filled with love, hope, peace, longsuffering, grace and mercy. It is becoming more clear now that the love that is referred to most often has to do with emotions and worldly comforts rather than the love that Jesus taught and exampled. Of all the teachings in the Bible, there is none about not caring, not witnessing, not encouraging others to be growing in the wisdom of the Lord. Finding God's will is most important and I find it ironic that other Christians would not be encouraging me to continue in the faith. Instead, it is harping on either love or not judging, both of which is a form of "accept a given premise if we are to accept an outsiders concepts".

In reality, we are all in the life construct together and it behooves each participant to be honest with ourselves and then as a group so that progress can be had in the war of the flesh against the spirit. If anyone is lacking the only part that I point out that it might be that some basic choices have been made in error. It doesn't take much time to respond in truth as much as I have attempted to talk about truth and all that follows. My prayer is that we all get right with God and live according to His will. To that extent, why not have that conversation?

The gift analogy was mine and the message was totally missed. Probably because of my presentation by leaving out crucial words. The dichotomy was supposed to be a gift from Satan or a gift from Jesus. The the risk of making up anything on the spot is it might be unclear.

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @Tiffani @fajitaknocks 

Right, nothing I believe will change or modify the world in any way. I can believe for something to happen, for however long I want and nothing will change because I believe it.


My spiritual beliefs are not for the purpose of interacting or responding to the world. My spiritual beliefs are for the sole purpose of acknowledging God's presence and His attributes. If God wants to alter the world in any way, it would not change my relationship with my Heavenly father. That is my belief system based on Jesus's teachings and those of the apostles.

DavidStevens
DavidStevens

@Tim Conley @DavidStevens @Tiffani @fajitaknocks


Okay, so your behaviors in regards to the world and everyone in it have nothing to do with your beliefs, are not influenced by your beliefs, have no bearing on your beliefs, and cannot affect your beliefs? In other words, there is no connection whatsoever between your earthly behavior and your beliefs?

Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @Tiffani @fajitaknocks 

Now you have gone from belief to behavior.

Staying with the original topic of my belief influencing the world, no, my belief is a response to Jesus's teachings.

In the reverse, my beliefs can be modified by the world, IF I don't keep centered, focused on Jesus.

Since you have changed the topic to my behavior, yes, of course my behavior will change by way of my beliefs. But that does not preclude my world view will change. My world view may or may not change, but that does not have any bearing on my beliefs or my spiritual life. My world view is inconsequential with anything since my spiritual life and my beliefs are first consideration.

It is like this: When I believed in Jesus and I received a new life and relationship, spiritually, then this physical world(along with any view of it) was less of a factor. And it will continue to be less and less of a factor the closer I get to God and that relationship grows.

DavidStevens
DavidStevens

@Tim Conley @DavidStevens @Tiffani @fajitaknocks


I don't know where you are or what the weather is like, but here in Portland the sun is shining on the green trees, God's glory is immediate, apparent and available. No intermediary text or teacher is needed.


Praise the Lord.

DavidStevens
DavidStevens

@Tim Conley @DavidStevens @Tiffani @fajitaknocks


I don't understand the value of your belief system if it doesn't have a bearing on how you interact with the people around you.


It sounds like omphaloskepsis which is, admittedly, enjoyable, but does very little to help others.


Tim Conley
Tim Conley

@DavidStevens @Tim Conley @Tiffani @fajitaknocks 

My belief is in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That is my relationship and it is up to God to direct the impact of my beliefs. All I know is how much joy it is being available to be a servant to anyone who comes along and God supplies the way to interact and the means to fill any needs.