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Powerful Responses to ‘I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.’

If you missed the introduction to these messages, click here to start at the beginning.

Powerful Response #5:

Tonight I was going to kill myself. I had it all planned out. I had all the items to do it sitting in my bedroom. I don’t know if I would have done it but I sure was planning to. Ever since I told my parents and a few close friends that I was gay life has gotten worse and worse. My parents who go to church twice a week have tried to force me to go to this boot camp that’s made to force the gay out of you. They’ve told me more times than I can count that as long as I’m gay I’m not their son and that if I loved them or God at all I would do whatever it takes to not be gay anymore. They’ve even talked to my only friends and they all had a gay intervention for me and told me that they couldn’t be in my life if I was going to keep saying that I was gay.

I’ve never been with another guy. I’ve never told anyone else. All I’ve ever done was finally get the guts to tell the people I was closest to in my life that I was gay and they’ve all turned on me. This all started about six months ago and I’ve never been so alone in my life.

Anyways I just was on Facebook trying to decide if I should write a goodbye note and somebody posted a link to your Christian/gay post. The post was super good, but the comments are what kept me on your site for hours. The love people who didn’t even know Jacob were showing gave me hope I guess, and then somebody posted a video called it gets better and I’ve never seen these videos but I watched it and then a bunch more and for the first time I have hope that maybe it will get better I just know now that it probably won’t get better for me here. But somewhere maybe.

So if you will, please tell your readers that they saved a life and tell them thank you because I didn’t really want to die I just really didn’t want to live with this anymore. I can’t wait to turn 18 and get out of this place. Pray for me. I’m going to need it.

Click on page 6 below to read the next response.

1467 comments
JustMe
JustMe

It's always astonished me that this is even an issue. I grew up in a church that accepts everyone the way they are. We like to say "we don't care"- we don't care your race, your sexual preferences, your socioeconomic class... None of that. So having grown up in such a loving accepting environment I was shocked the first time I found out that there are "Christians" out there who really hate anything LGBTQIA. It's absolutely ridiculous. To all those "Christians" who will quote Leviticus, I'd like to point out John 13:34 AND John 15:12 (SO important Jesus said it TWICE) "a NEW commandment I give to you: love one another as I have loved you." I'll never understand why anyone thinks its any of their business concerning other people's sexual preferences. As a side note, I was reading the first response, which was a negative one and the spelling and grammatical errors that the person who wrote that made seriously damage his/her credibility. Even if you forgive the grammar and some typos, God should be capitalized, something they fail to do through the duration of that email, but that's me being nit-picky.

The point being, thank you for posting this because people need to hear it I think.

Melissia
Melissia

Thank you for these, and for your original article.  It's sometimes hard to remember that my fellow Christians are not all driven by hate...

kimbits01
kimbits01

Wow. Such "Christian" hatred


Graham C
Graham C

Dear Dan,

Thank you for posting both the negative and the positive responses. I think that it is important to show both sides. That being said, I couldn't even read the negative ones. Hate does not come naturally or easily to me. I am in general a very caring and level headed person and I try to avoid that kind of poison in my life. The sheer indignation and anger that I start to feel when reading letters of people using religion and "known" facts to hide behind as they hurl their hatred is quite overwhelming. The following positive reactions you posted made me tear up.

I know you have probably had many people thank you for writing this article and posting the reactions but let me add my voice to the multitude. I thank you for not only writing this article but for also being the kind of father who will always love and cherish his son, no matter what. Being the son of a pair of amazing and loving parents, I know exactly the kind of impact that it can have on you. The fact that your article is waking up other parents and helping them to become loving and accepting is going to have a trickle down effect for a really long time. The love of a parent or parental figure is so important in life, not just when you are growing up.

Keep up the good work and despite the fact I won't be reading them, keep posting the hater's comments. When you have someone spewing such hate and vitriol it allows those sitting on the fence to see what an ugly thing hatred and bigotry can be. This in turn can push them off the fence.


Cheers,

Graham C.

Just someone
Just someone

Dear Dan,

I would like for you to read Leviticus 20 completely and pay special attention to verse 13. In this verse is it stated that a man should not lay with a man as a man would do with a woman. Both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads.

That is what God says about homosexuality, it is a sin, it's not a good thing. Also you can't be Christian and gay, you just can't because you then deny that part of the bible. 

Back in that time the Leviticus were the ones having to keep a hand in these rules and actually punish the ones who were commiting a sin. Nowadays we don't have these people anymore because Jesus sacrificed himself and said: Go and do not Sin. We will all be judged infront of God one day and God almighty will be the one who will ask us: My son told you not to sin, why have you denied that request and why did you do it? What will your answer ben then? What will the answer of a Gay Christian be then? Knowing it is a Sin in God's eyes.

As it is stated in Leviticus: Laying with another Man, having sex with an animal or with your mother/sister/daughter-in-law it's a Sin. These rules were not made for nothing, they were made to be followed and to be a good Christian. Now you won't hear me say I do not Sin, I do Sin and if I do I beg God to forgive me for I have sinned.


One last thing: Could anyone please explain to me why we have gays and lesbians in the western countries and not in the 3rd world countries? Don't see those rambo bush people being gay now do you?

Mariellaknaus
Mariellaknaus

Hi Dan, 

Thank you so much for all the posts on this topic. I come from a similar christian background to you (not Mormon) however for years I have struggled to understand the conflicting messages within the Christian community. Being a strong minded and fiercely independent woman I have faced many of my own battles with the church's ideals of how I 'should be and behave', my future was always limited and set in a very narrow path I don't believe is what God has intended for me at all.  He has made us exactly who we are for a reason!

Although I do still consider myself a christian I have spent years coming to terms with what I believe and why. I love God and I love his people (however long it may take at times!). I cannot fathom how it would be acceptable in any religion or culture to treat someone differently because of their sexual preference, appearance, race etc etc. 

There is a lot of negativity toward all different sects however I agree that your message on love is the true core of all of these religions and has somehow been lost.

Thank you again for raising awareness and being a tool to reach out to the outcasts, the people in hiding or struggling with their own situations.

This was really refreshing and I really appreciate and enjoyed reading it. I look forward to more!

#sharethelove
M

the_leaky_pen
the_leaky_pen

This has been beautiful and incredible--both the original post and the current one. I have become really cynical about religious people in general because so many of them are the kind of awful people who promote hate over love and violence over kindness. I'm still an atheist because I still believe that belief in the supernatural doesn't make sense, but I'm always happy to read about religious folks or theists who can promote love and kindness and friendship. The world is a better place because of you and because of all the brave people on pages 4-8. I love you. 

Leunscha
Leunscha

Okay, since the beginning of my comment seems to get all the attention, let me rephrase it:

I don't think Christians should be gay. Simply because the bible tells us that men having sex with men and women with women is disgusting to God. And since God has always been the same, still is the same and in all eternity is going to be the same as always (Hebrews 13) it still is disgusting to Him.

But anyway, what you were supposed to get is: If people are gay (whether they choose to or not) doesn't matter to me. I do love everybody as a person no matter in what way they sin. I sin, too. And my comment wasn't meant to offend anybody. Sorry it did. It's just a problem I've always had: putting my thoughts into words. I got the introduction wrong, didn't I?

To respond to your comments: Yes, I do and don't do lots of things that modern people/Christians call outdated, but I don't care what people say. I just do what I understand is right according to the bible. You understand it different, do it different.

Leunscha
Leunscha

I have to tell everybody one thing: If yo are a real Christian, you cannot be gay - that's against the rules. God's rules. And if you are a Christian you HAVE to love everybody, just like God does. And He doesn't hate gays. He loves everybody in this world. He just hates the things people do. He didn't make us that way, because He doesn't want us to be that way. If He wanted us to be gay, He'd have made us gay. All of us.

As a Christian we are to love everybody - even our enemies. But we are to hate sin. It's just like with kids: you don't necessary like what they're doing, but you still love your kids. You don't have to like what gays do, but you still should love them as people.

modernmom23
modernmom23

I know plenty of people who use Christianity to judge others for anything, including being gay.  Jesus had nothing whatsoever to say on the subject, but did say 'whosoever is without sin cast the first stone'.  I am Christian and I don't care at all whether someone is gay or not.  It's not a choice, or there would not be gays in states like Alabama.  I prefer the Christian message of love and tolerance.  If God whats to send people to hell for being gay, that's his job. 

I have become a lot more tolerant and kind in the last 15 years (or at least willing to publicly say it and do it) and have been a much happier person for it.

a grateful reader
a grateful reader

Wow.  Powerful stuff.
When I first read I'm Christian Unless You're Gay, it really impacted me as a lesbian who was once a devout and spiritual Christian.  I wanted everyone to read it.  I felt so wounded by the Christian Church that turned its back on me.  Your post gave me hope that Christians might exist who believed in what was once so meaningful to me.  About a year ago I somehow found a beautiful loving community at a UCC that welcomes gay people.  After feeling banished from the Church for two decades, I found a home.  Together we're working on feeding the hungry and the homeless, working for social justice, and creating a safe and loving space where all are welcome.  Perhaps I would have found this community without the impact of your post, but I'm sure that it helped open my heart to give love a chance.

Katt
Katt

I have spent the last four decades trying to live up to my own personal philosophy "Save the world, one person at a time, through kindness." I fall down or fail sometimes and sometimes the deluge of ugly, hateful and negative responses from the world is disheartening and I get so tired I grind to a stop.  Then someone I lent a hand to (or put an arm around) years ago tells me they wouldn't be alive if I hadn't been there, or that they would never have taken the chance that led to something fabulous, or that they believe I helped them find the strength to be a better, kinder person and I feel both elated and humbled.  Each of these people really made the change in their life themselves but they needed someone to believe they could.  And I get up again myself and go on, wearing my heart on my sleeve and believing that WE are the answer to our own problems. Love to you all, especially those trapped on either side of the walls of fear and anger. May you all forgive and be forgiven and go on to feel kindness.

henwhen
henwhen

Judge NOT lest ye be judged. 

"Do not judge others, and you will not be judged."

That woman does NOT know her scripture.  That just makes me sick.

Taylor
Taylor

I just read these stories today (November 14, 2012). Wow. So powerful, and so beautiful. Genuine stories like these really touch the heart. Thanks for sharing them with us.

Sparrowchild
Sparrowchild

That is AMAZING!!! I don't think there are any suitable words to describe just how wonderful it is that your article made such an impact. It did bring tears to my eyes to read those last positive stories. The first two were saddening in the not-so-touching kind of way. It's just...shocking to me to see that kind of negative attitude and kinda scary to realize I used to be like that. Not. Any. More. Throughout the years I've grown up and let go of those archaic and hateful ideals. People need to be loved and those who are gay cannot change the way they are. It's the way they are. It's not something they know is wrong on a deeper level, it's something that is a part of them and it's not wrong. It's what's right for them. It's how they were born and we should love and accept them as is instead of trying to change an intrinsic aspect of their personal self.

A Mom
A Mom

I just recently discovered your blog through a friend who posted "How I Screwed Up My Marriage" - which is an awesome entry, by the way. (Wish my husband would read it.) Thank you for writing, posting and reposting "...Unless You're Gay." I reposted the link in the hopes my husband will see it and read it. It's not likely. My daughter is 6 months clean from opiate addiction, but is living in a city relatively far away. Her whole life right now revolves around recovery, which, of course, means all of her friends are also in recovery. Almost all of them are from middle-class families, but my husband is exasperatingly judgmental, calling them, (and my daughter), "trash," "junkies," "thieves," and "freaks." (Most of them, including my daughter, are into piercings & tatoos). They are her support system, so I am grateful for them, and they're good kids who went down the wrong path - for whatever reason. I am ashamed to admit that, before this experience with my daughter, I was less than accepting myself of these individuals, but that's all changed. We are afraid, (i.e. unaccepting/disdainful/intolerant) of what we do not know. I know these kids now. I'm sorry. I'm rambling. I guess what I want to say is "thank you" for including EVERYONE in your tolerance post. I have never read an essay or editorial on tolerance that included addicts or "trash," and it is remarkably thoughtful of you to do so. I will continue to read and enjoy your blog.

momoffour
momoffour

Just found your blog today.  Started with the cute baby photos and progressed through many posts until I got to to the "I'm Christian, Unless..." posts.  Wow.  As the mom of a gay son, I just have to say thank you.  I go to a fairly conservative church, but live in a very liberal area.  It makes me sad to think of the reactions my son will receive from others at our church (those closest to him know, but he only tells if directly asked).   I just don't get how parents, friends, etc can cut someone out of their life for admitting that they are gay.  S/He is the exact same person that they knew and loved the second before s/he says "I'm gay"!  I can't imagine turning my back on my son.  He's a really great guy.  I can't stand the thought of never having contact with him again.  It would be worse than him dying. 

 

The "church" has done so much damage to so many people in the name of Christ!!  The God I follow sent His Son for EVERYONE, loves EVERYONE, and holds out his arms to EVERYONE.  None of us deserves that love, but it's given freely to all. 

 

So, again, thank you.  Thank you for starting this discussion.  Thank you for your boldness, your willingness to be open about your own life, and for standing up what you believe!

Satchmo78
Satchmo78

Wow. 

 

I am not a regular reader, I got sent here by my loving wife who thought that your 16 ways to blow your marriage post was great reading (which it was, thanks).  Then I followed the "other posts you might like", which brought me here and to your original "I'm Christian..." post. 

 

Let me start by saying that I don't normally comment on blogs, but your post had me in tears.  I'm one of those athiests that you wrote about, hate-filled when it comes to most religious people.  I'm like the racist who says "I'm not racist because my gardner's black".  Most of my hatred isn't directed directly at specific people, but rather to religion as a whole which I think has helped create the divisions and animosity that exists in the world today. 

 

Then I read your post.  Then I read the first responses you posted (which reinforced my hatred).  Then I read more, and more. 

 

While I am not going to say I'm reformed - I don't think that's really possible in a morning - I must say that you have done something that nobody has been able to do for me in a long, long time.  You have given me hope. Hope that maybe one day humans will exist in a world that is free of hate.  I realize that I am also to blame for some of this hatred, and I pledge to do my best to conquer it in the future.  

 

Thank you. 

Enraged
Enraged

I made it through 3 responses, and had to stop reading them.  First, sodom and gomorrah was not simply destroyed because of alleged homosexuality.  Furthermore, Lot offers his virgin daughters instead to sleep with these men out of wedlock.  But, I guess for everyone's argument purposes, that is never mentioned.  Second, there were things such as bestiality and gambling going on as well.  Which, we know today, gambling is becoming more and more legalized across the country.  It seems too often Christians use bits and pieces of the bible to argue their points, and leave out the rest.  I feel for this 15 year old boy, and have more admiration for his mother than I could possibly explain.  I'm 33 years old, in the military, and still have yet to approach this subject with my parents due to fear of their reaction.  They are my family.  It shouldn't be that way!  Luckily, the government has fought half of my battle for me.  At that young man's age, I was suicidal, and had no one to turn to, except God of course.  I prayed for 3 years for Him to change me.  When it didn't happen, I decided I would find love and be happy, and still live the best Christian life I can. You bigots posting the nonsense to Mr. Pearce, turn some of that anger toward yourselves, because God is going to judge you, too!

Stihltygre
Stihltygre

@Just someone Actually, you DO have homosexuality in primitive culture and always have, But lets discuss the Laws of Leviticus shall we, First of all... If you are Christian, then you believe Jesus to be the Christ, the fulfillment of the covenant, so what does that mean?Well a covenant is a contract, SO if Jesus is the fulfillment of the Leviticus contract, then it's restrictions and laws have served their purpose (thus allowing you to eat shrimp and pork and such). If we can assume that Jesus fulfilled that contract we can expect new rules maybe.. so we can look to the bible... does it give us any new rules after the arrival of Jesus? Why yes In Matthew You are told to Love god, and to love your neighbor as yourself... So we have precedent for the NEW laws of the post Leviticus era. Homosexuality does not get brought up again until Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul to y'all), Who A) never actually MET Jesus, and B) was in his previous life a Pharisee, after losing his Mentor, it's it not a stretch at all, to understand why he would fall back on the Laws of Leviticus... The next question would logically be "well no one contradicts him" the answer to this one is sad and one of the reasons i am no longer christian. During the first attempt to create a unified Bible, 2/3 of the biblical writing were not even considered because they were not written in Greek (which was the language that society considered the most "scholarly" at the time about 300AD) Who was the apostle who spent the most time among Greek speaking people? Why the apostle Paul of course. Biblical history is full of these troublesome happenings, If the bible were so definitely anti-homosexuality then it becomes very odd that the catholic church had liturgy for it, and were a pair of married male saints... I've spent a life time of studying spirit, and have been told by many priests and rabbi's that i have a clear understanding of biblical text, i am also a bit of a historian and you cannot look at the writings of ancient peoples without considering their society and the history between then and now.  For instance, the phrase "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is ludicrous ancient Hebrews did not have a concept of witch as we know it, the word used more accurately translates to Poisoner implying one who makes poisons for assassination and recreation ( equate them to a modern person running a meth lab), however how many people have been persecuted by that mistranslation ? Aside from ALL these facts is the simple fact that you don't get to judge others, Christ Says not to, so WHO is more important in your faith, the transcribers and the pharisees....or Christ? 

btw I'm NOT a Christian, and I find this whole Banning of love cruel and heartless, which is very unlike the Jesus who's work i truly admire.... Maybe instead of looking to the punishments you truly ask yourself What WOULD Jesus do, because the only time i can remember him getting angry, was over greedy people turning the temple into a business....

lanl_menace
lanl_menace

@Leunscha You may have actually just earned a small part of respect from me based on your last statement -- you don't care what others say, you follow your own beliefs.  Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, you cherry-pick what you want to believe in the Bible and use it to beat at others.  If you're going to use Leviticus to say you don't believe that Gays are Christians, then you need to read the whole of Leviticus.  As has been pointed out, Leviticus also goes into other sins like cutting your hair, shaving, or eating pork.

For me, the contradictions and cruelty in the Bible are part of why I will never be a Christian.  A few examples:

"You shall have no other God before me" and the implied "or you're going to hell":

 I really hope we're not the most advanced beings in the universe, but I've personally never seen anything that convinces me that there is a God much less which one is the one true God that I should worship exclusively.  The usual line from Christians is that all I need to do is look around at all the wonderful things that without God (including man), wouldn't exist.  If that's the case, then what created God?  This is the point most Christians change the subject or leave.

On top of that, what about the people who are born into areas where Christianity is never even discussed and worse, a Bible is outlawed and can get you killed for just possessing one.  Is the Christian God really so cruel as to threaten his children that have never even known him?

The whole homosexuality thing:

The Bible contradicts itself on this issue (and quite a few others) so which part of the Bible am I to believe?

Wars in the name of God:

If we're supposed to love each other, then why did we have the Crusades or quite a few of the existing wars going on in Christs name?

Enough for now

Karolenski
Karolenski

@Leunscha "If He wanted us to be gay, He'd have made us gay. All of us."

Ah. And if he'd wanted us to have blue eyes, he'd have made us with blue eyes. ALL of us.

GrantDevereaux
GrantDevereaux

@Leunscha So I assume you eat no shell fish and no pork, do not cut you r hair if you are woman or shave your beard if you are man, because that is in the Bible too. Oh, that is outdated,. Imagine that!

Jesus never said one word, not one against homosexuality. Neither did God. So the people who said something about Homosexuality were just men and they said a lot of crazy stuff in the Bible. The bible condone slavery, concubines, mistresses, abortions and countless other things. If you actually were familiar with what the Bible actually says, not just the passages your preacher reads to you in Church on Sunday, you would realize it is quite fallible and quite wrong in many many places. 

If you want to be a Christian, try following Christ, not Paul or any  number of the other fallible men who wrote the Bible. Christ left his Church to Peter - and Paul was an enemy of Peters. Something to think about, late at night, while you are busy judging people. 


lanl_menace
lanl_menace

@Leunscha There's a problem with your very first statement.  By saying what you did, you are also stating that anyone who violates any other part of the Bible (like the 10 commandments for example) willfully can not be a real Christian either.  Here are a BUNCH that are broken on a regular basis and frequently in churches (based on English Standard Version although others are similar).

2nd commandment: You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.  Problem is that most churches have images or statues of Christ on the cross.

3rd commandment: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.  UMMMM I won't even mention the number of times I've heard a "Christian" do just exactly that.  Asking for forgiveness assumes you didn't do it on purpose.

4th commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.  Ever work on Sunday?  Oops, I guess you're going straight to hell.

7th commandment: You shall not commit adultery. Do I really need to point out the number of people who commit adultery including many in power and when they're caught, they magically ask for forgiveness?  Did they not know what they were doing was wrong while the were committing adultery?

8th commandment: You shall not steal.  LOTS of that going on according to my local police blotter.

9th commandment: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Lots of that going on too.

10th commandment: You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.  Seeing a pattern here?

Are you going to tell all of them that they aren't Christians too -- more than likely including yourself (definitely includes me, too)?

vicden
vicden

@Leunscha There is a flaw in your logic. If God insists on all people being the same, why so people have different hair colour, eye colour, skin colour? Why are some of us short and others tall? We can do things to make it appear that our appearance is different, but it is the outward appearance changing only. A person can pretend to be straight, but that does not make it so any more than my dying my hair and wearing lifts  in my shoes and coloured contacts will make me tall with red hair and green eyes. A person may stay in the closet all their life, and deny being anything but straight to everyone, but that does not make it so. If you believe that God created humans, and that God does not make mistakes, then he created gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered, and all other people who are not straight, and not by accident.

modernmom23
modernmom23

@a grateful reader  

Just curious, what is UCC?  I have heard of Unitarian Universalist, which welcomes gays with open arms (and pretty much anyone else that wants to feed the hungry and homeless, work on social justice and create a safe and loving space.

LindaRussellWalton
LindaRussellWalton

Precisely - Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their lack of hospitality, overly proud natures, laziness and their lack of charity - 

 

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

and in a slightly different translation  - 

 

Ezekiel 16:48-50 God compares Jerusalem to Sodom, saying "Sodom never did what you and your daughters have done." He explains that the sin of Sodom was that "She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me."

 

Sometimes I wonder if the people who wave the bible around and thump it actually bother opening it and reading.

Leunscha
Leunscha

@lanl_menace @Leunscha I don't pick what I want to believe. I believe everything the bible says. There's just some things that are quite confusing and that's why everybody interprets it in their own way. And, as I already said, I'm sorry my comment was offending/judging. I didn't mean it that way.

Lots of the laws from the old testament were updated/refined by Jesus himself in Matthew chapter 5; and some of them through visions (like the one about eating pork, Acts 10). As a woman, I don't cut my hair either (but I care for it by trimming) and my husband does have a beard.

To your question about who created God: You're never gonna find a satisfying answer to that question. Because if we find someone who created God, the next question is gonna be who created that someone and so on and so on. But I rather believe, that there is a God, who always existed and always will exist, than to believe in the 'big bang theory'. There's no logic in nothing going bang and creating this great universe. I can give you a recipe for creating: Take a bowl of nothing, wait until it goes 'bang' and see what you've got. ;) All we can understand about God is as big as an atom in the whole universe; He's gonna explain the rest to us once we're in heaven.

God doesn't threaten the ones who never know Him. Everybody at some point in their lives gets the chance of hearing about Him - with or without bible.

The wars that are so called in Christs name are not really in Christs name. Just some crazy people calling it that.

Actually, all you need to believe is that there is a God; that He sent His only son (Jesus Christ) to the earth (as a human being) to die for us sinners; that Jesus is risen from the dead and went back to heaven and everything Jesus ever said. In all the other matters I'd say: study the bible as good as you can (netbible.com is a good spot to look) and if it gets too confusing, follow your heart/conscience. Once you believe and ask God for forgiveness of your sins, you'll have the Holy Spirit helping you to understand better.

Leunscha
Leunscha

@lanl_menace @Leunscha Actually, that is in fact exactly, what I was saying.Whoever does these things willfully, cannot say they are Christians. If you really are a Christian you are to do what the bible says. All of it. You can't just do some of it, just like every country has their laws and everybody who lives there has to keep them or gets thrown into jail.

And I'm not saying that I'm perfect. By far not. But I try to keep every single one of God's laws.

Leunscha
Leunscha

@vicden @Leunscha I didn't say God wants us all to be the same in looks. But there is a passage in the bible (and I'm sorry I don't know exactly where) that says, that God is disgusted by men having sex with men and women having sex with women. (or humans having sex with animals)

And I don't believe that God makes people gay. I believe being gay comes from somewhere else. I'm sure it's just a mind-thing that comes through certain circumstances.

Dragonstaff
Dragonstaff

 @LindaRussellWalton 

I found a quote the other week that answers your last line perfectly. I just wish I knew who said it.

"To most Christians, the Bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click 'I Agree'"

Leunscha
Leunscha

@RobertEckert @Leunscha @lanl_menace I don't know what bible you are talking about, but mine says something totally different about the divorce thing.

And I'm not giving in here, but I won't comment anymore. Someone will find something else I supposedly do wrong and I'll come up with an explanation and it's never going to end. I believe and do what I do and you can believe and do whatever you want. I do love you though, no matter how much you disagree with me. That is what you were supposed to get from my original (and rephrased) comment.

RobertEckert
RobertEckert

@Leunscha @RobertEckert @lanl_menace I do not need a book to tell me that.

You should pay some attention to such passages as Jesus saying the divorce laws were "hard-hearted", or telling his disciples to openly breach the Sabbath commandments.  In these cases, he is saying, precisely, that you do NOT just "follow whatever is written in an old book":  some of it is of lasting validity, some is just "the best they could do at the time".  How do you tell which is which?  For that, you need to have a moral sense.  You are using the book as a substitute for a moral sense:  you would be better off burning the book.

RobertEckert
RobertEckert

@Leunscha @RobertEckert @lanl_menace He wrote not one single word, doubtless for fear that people like you would miss his message entirely.  No, his message was not "Do whatever you are told in some old writings".

Stihltygre
Stihltygre

@Leunscha @RobertEckert @lanl_menace and you can't know what the book says when 2/3 of it was left on the cutting room floor in the third century... Christ said "Love god Love your neighbor as you love yourself these two laws i give you" he did NOT say there will be more later... i'm Pagan and I know that... the laws of leviticus were the laws of the covenant, the covenant was fulfilled by Jesus' resurrection... when you fulfill the conditions of your mortgage do you continue to send the bank money too? Blind reliance on a 2000 yr old book if either folly, or an unwillingness to listen to your own heart and the hearts of people, NOT creating a closer realtionship with the "God of Love" as y'all like to call him

lanl_menace
lanl_menace

@Leunscha So based on what you said (which is incorrect by the way -- do a little research), God chooses to "punish" a child (who obviously had nothing to do with the sexual acts the parents performed) and if the child matures to adulthood, should not be allowed to marry?  Is that really what you're saying?

So much for a loving God.

Leunscha
Leunscha

@lanl_menace@Leunscha@vicdenI know what kind of people you mean. I have/had two sisters with that problem. One died at 9 months and one's still alive.

I say, yes, God does make those people, but only because of interference of humans. I looked it up, but it doesn't say exactly. As far as I know hermaphrodites are mutations that occur when the two people who make the baby are related too close. Like my parents are fourth cousins or something like that. So hermaphrodites are not entirely "just" God's creation.

vicden
vicden

@lanl_menace @Leunscha @vicden IanI, I think you may have misunderstood my comment, I don not believe for an instant that ones sexual orientation is a choice. If I ever had, seeing a bright funny young man try to kill himself because he "just couldn't be straight" (his phrase) would have disabused me of the notion.

@Leunscha I suspect you are thinking of Leviticus, but I would be careful about using that one as it carries the same weight as wearing mixed fabric clothing, shaving, eating pork or shellfish or working on the Sabbath

lanl_menace
lanl_menace

@Leunscha @vicden So you're assuming God wouldn't make people who are Gay and that it's a choice completely ignoring all the studies that prove you wrong?  

Here's one that God definitely makes and that also causes problems for your theory... Look up the term 'Hermaphrodite'.  In short, the term refers to a person who is born with both sets of genders (or parts thereof).  By very definition, a hermaphrodite is both gay and straight at the same time -- unless parents or a doctor chooses to remove what they believe to be the less dominant parts -- and God help them if the parent or doctor chooses wrong.